Patricia Bolaños: Full Podcast Transcript
- beyondhorizon965
- Jul 29
- 65 min read
Updated: Aug 1
Host: Maximiliano Fabres Guest: Patricia Bolaños
Location: Minesota, USA
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Maximiliano: My guest today is Patricia Bolaños Fabres, professor of Hispanic Studies and Gender Studies. Patricia, welcome to Beyond the Horizon podcast.
Patricia Bolaños: Thank you very much for having me with you. I appreciate that. And I'm looking forward to some interesting a interesting discussion and very poignant questions.
Maximiliano: Yeah, I really enjoyed making the questions. I really I really really like it. I get really excited when I when I do a podcast. So because I study for like about 10 hours and then like transform that into questions straight away.
Maximiliano: Excellent.
Patricia Bolaños:Well, and and that's the thing, you know I just I think well I'm in academia teaching so more than anything else I think what is the inquisitive intellectual intellectual curiosity. I think it's just to see it's so wonderful to still see alive, you know, when you have started looking into those things and asking yourself questions because it modifies how we think and how we experience the world.
Maximiliano: Oh my god. Yes. I got to say after reading a lot of the papers that you sent me, I did I got to say I didn't read all of them. I I got to be truthful. Uh I'm I'm I'm I'm very I'm a very slow reader. So that's why I I I just decided to cut it at at 15 hours. I think I did. Uh so just like stay there. Um well, sorry.
Patricia Bolaños: No, I said that's fine. That's perfectly fine.
Maximiliano: Yeah. So uh let's begin. So for the first uh part of the podcast, for the first chapter, we're going to go for the landscape aka the contracts uh the context and constraints for gender studies. So let's start straight up. What is the system that you operate in or basically what is gender studies today?
Patricia Bolaños: Well, gender I mean you have to understand a little bit about the history of how gender studies came to be. Gender studies is really uh is was birthed by femin the feminism and feminism of course by emancipation etc. So it's really about a movement about the rights of human beings regardless of uh their sex. So, gender studies, I often believe is uh it's not only an it's an academic, it's a field of inquiry that poses questions with an with a gender lens. And by gender, I mean, I often indicate to my students and other people that there's quite a difference between gender and sex. Some people use it interchangeably. Sex is really So, I easily just
Maximiliano: Yeah. Could you give us a little bit of the knowledge uh on that please?
Patricia Bolaños: Yes. Sex is between your legs and gender is between your ears. So sex is what you were born with. And there's not only two sexes. It's not only male and female. There's also intersex there's everything in between hermaphrodites etc. So there are different kinds of sex in nature even and we as human animals also we are born with different uh with a a spectrum of the manifestation or the presentation of sex organs. So that's what you're born with your biological sex. But gender is really you how you identify. It's more internal. It's more mental how you feel. So for example, you know, um I have a friend, a a close friend actually, who was born uh female, okay, with a female sex organs, but grew up always feeling male. They called they called him a tomboy. They called him uh you know uh in in Spanish marimacho, things like that. And eventually I she it was life was quite difficult for them and eventually they uh got up the courage to actually come out and say I don't identify with my you know depression a lot of a lot of their difficulties. So what we are born with doesn't always correspond with how we feel. So that is you can say that person yes their sex may be female but their gender identity is masculine.
Maximiliano:
Maximiliano:
Maximiliano: So gender, Mhm. So let let me understand this. So uh I got so many questions. Okay. I got a uh I got a transgender uh sister. So it's it's a very very intimate uh issue or topic uh for me and it's mainly intimate because I just completely don't understand it. Okay. I got to I got to I got to say it out loud. I just generally just don't understand cuz uh I say to myself that I don't have the question of gender. Is that something that is is that right to say or or is it not?
Patricia Bolaños: I don't know what you mean by that question. I don't have the question for gender. What do you mean?
Maximiliano: Um I've never asked myself is the if the gender and my sex are different. I've I've never asked myself that. And I think a lot of the people never have. So it's it's I don't think I'm I'm the only one. or hopefully hopefully hopefully I'm not the only one.
Patricia Bolaños: Quite interestingly you know uh I take I my students I ask my students to take take a test okay take a test about how masculine how their level of masculinity and femininity and then way to discover the results about how how broad they are that they have both feminine qualities and masculine qualities. So me for example and I'm free to share my perspective. I have male male qualities in the sense that I'm competitive. I am very good in judging distances which is usually assigned to masculine traits. So because men are good at carpentry they're good at me they're used to doing all those things you know. So I'm very I have a acuity in that uh in that aspect. But uh for example, someone who is more in touch with their emotions, they're more in touch with their feminine side, right?
Maximiliano: As if men could not be emotional.
Patricia Bolaños: I think emotion is really a human trait. Correct. But our society creates what gender what gender should be for that society. So take for example in uh in the United States, it's fine for a woman to wear pants, correct?
Maximiliano: Mhm.
Patricia Bolaños: It wasn't before they had to wear skirts. Eventually they could wear pants. In Saudi Arabia or some societies that are more restrictive, the attire that women must wear is more limited. Who puts the limits? Society society, right? So being a woman in Saudi Arabia is very different from being a woman in the United States. Before in Saudi Arabia, women could not drive until recently, right?
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: To to protect them from their old bad skills, I suppose. I don't know.
Maximiliano: But I've run I've run across very poor poor male drivers as well, to be quite honest.
Maximiliano: Me being one, by the way, I'm I am a poor driver. I I drive like a grandma as well. That's that's the worst thing ever. I drove in the UK once and I was horrible. I kept going into wrong lane. It was a miracle. I did not. I was not arrested. I should have been, but I wasn't.
Maximiliano: Well, first Oh, I just don't understand the UK countryside though. That that's that's the awful bit. But you were saying?
Patricia Bolaños: anyway. Yeah. So, I read it. But what I'm saying is that we don't ask ourselves that because we're not accustomed to thinking more deeply about those things because we take it we assume what society tells us. You know I am very I mean for example I hate housework. I do I have no domestic gene. No domesticity. I cooking if I have to to feed people that depend on nourishment but otherwise I would not have I would not want to cook. I hate cleaning vacuum. No, I would rather not do that.
Maximiliano: I got to say, uh, me with a vacuum or me with the with the ironing. Oh my god, that's so good. I swear to God, that is my that is my jam.
Patricia Bolaños: Oh my gosh. You need to come over. You're hired.
Maximiliano: Yeah. Okay.
Patricia Bolaños: Oh my gosh. But put me with a tractor going outside and mowing the lawn, taking care of plants. So my mother once told me, "You should have been born a man." I said, "Mom, why a woman can't mow the lawn in a tractor? It's easy and it gets me away from those nasty chores of doing dishes and cooking and washing." So, it's, you see what I mean? So, our society dictates what masculine and what feminine traits are acceptable in that in that in that region in that area. Right?
Maximiliano: M
Patricia Bolaños: so being for example even today being an outspoken woman is still not acceptable because for a man who's outspoken he is in charge he is you know a leader if a woman that they call her and pardon the pardon my French or a right it's true it's that's you know a woman who speaks her mind who is who has who has ambitions who is not to this day and to this day women do not make the same amount of salary as men for the same job given the same qualifications and experience. So that is that reveals a little bit about the society in which we live. Right? So by that if by given those those things we would have to conclude that society is not feminine friendly. I would say, you know.
Maximiliano: Yeah. Um I mean I don't I don't study it. I just wouldn't maybe I wouldn't call it uh friendly but definitely not friendly in the workplace
Patricia Bolaños: I would say I would well yes I take note of your your point and I think it's a very good point because friendly as open because I think if we see each other if gender studies really like like um women's studies sexuality studies everything is very inclusive. So what they aspire what they really aspire to do is to have uh equity among human beings regardless of their sexuality, their sex, their race, their class, their ability, religion, ability, uh region of origin, citizenship status, life experiences, etc. You see what I mean? So regardless considering all of the differences that there are amongst human beings, we should all have equal rights. We should have equal opportunity. And that's what gender studies analyzes the inequities that exist in the world both you know in in in the different different areas you know. Um so for example uh in in labor everything from labor conditions, healthcare access, even popular culture for example uh you know in women's studies was often uh analyze how women were portrayed in media right but what about intersex what about transgender individuals so those are all of the things I mean it's l I mean I don't know if it's lucky sometimes you Ignorance. Ignorance is bliss. You have not really questioned how masculine am I am I? Right.
Maximiliano: Yeah. Never. Never in my Well, I I actually started asking that.
Patricia Bolaños: But now that that you love iron and cleaning and cooking and all those things. Oh, domestic traits that that
Maximiliano: Yeah. The the thing is uh how do you say I don't I don't think I give it the importance as my sister because I I just see the I just see that the comparison where where my focus lies
Patricia Bolaños: right
Maximiliano: my focus is not on saying okay this is feminine or masculine but my focus is maybe how productive is it so that's that I would say that's that's it
Patricia Bolaños: see that's the thing because feminine and masculine is really sex, but femininity and masculinity is gender.
Maximiliano: Sorry, could you repeat that again?
Patricia Bolaños: Saying feminine and masculine is really about having a penis or a vagina.
Maximiliano: Okay.
Patricia Bolaños: Right. But being feminine or being masculine is not about having a penis or a vagina, but rather how you feel inside.
Maximiliano: Okay, I see.
Patricia Bolaños: You see what I mean? So there's there's, for example, with your sister, there is a disconnect between sex and gender identity.
Maximiliano: Mhm.
Patricia Bolaños: By happenstance, they were born with a penis, right?
Maximiliano: But they would they have always felt feminine.
Maximiliano: Yeah. Well, I don't I don't I don't know. uh precisely since I uh the recent news that I got so I got like a multiple of thing is we don't see each other in like a year or 2 years so people develop uh so the last time I talked to her it was she prefers uh she her pronouns
Maximiliano: Mhm.
Maximiliano: but is uh is not uh she's not a she doesn't consider herself a woman. She is in a in a non-binary. I think that's that's the term that she used.
Patricia Bolaños: Yeah. And that's the thing I mean for example a lot of people when they ask you this is really about identity. When people ask you who are you right often people will answer I am a woman I am a mother. I am a academic you know what you identify with the work the what societ I'm Ecuadorian I am British I am etc so different types of categories right the societ in which categories in which human beings can be pigeonholed right, by being a woman by mere fact of being a woman that sometimes restricts my ability to do certain things in certain countries right?
Maximiliano: Mhm.
Patricia Bolaños: Where it might be more liberating for other people. So when you're talking about identity, it's how you identify yourself. I mean, for example, for me, what my first identify the most of, to be quite honest with you, I've always said, well, most my relatives often identify particularly in South America, they identify me as a raging feminist. I'm sure in Ecuador, Colombia, something like that would would have been and in Chile primarily as a raging feminist, a feminazi. Yeah,
Maximiliano: I would say at least the Chile that I grew up in. Is is it was a little bit different? I would say Chile and Argentina. Now,
Patricia Bolaños: Chile has changed in the past 15 years. It has changed. It has progressed a little bit. Well, with the fourthwave feminism, which is more focused about, you know, activism and the social media platforms and focus on body autonomy, preventing sexual violence, which, you know, sexual violence in the United States was dealt with back back in the third wave, but we're in the fourth wave feminism now.
Maximiliano: Yeah. At least in the south of South America. And it's a difference between how people identify me they they raging feminist where feminism for me might be a second or third place right
Maximiliano: yeah that's that's actually qu I would say
Patricia Bolaños: it is and that's that's a that's the issue because what is identity identity is really how you define yourself how you want other people to call you right
Maximiliano: sometimes
Patricia Bolaños: your parents might give you give you a name and then you don't like that name you prefer to identify as a different so people can change their names, right? And that's acceptable. Why not changing your gender if it doesn't correspond to who you feel you are?
Maximiliano: H yeah, makes sense. So I got I got two questions. uh what one was about uh the four uh waves of feminism and the next one I I'll say out loud just before I forget it is um why would it be relevant to uh organizations and the workplace and culture? why would it be relevant for that distinction to be made? Okay.
Patricia Bolaños: Well, about femini feminism or genocide because okay, gen fe feminism came there are four ways of feminism. The first one you know from the late 19th century to the early 20th century it was mostly about voting rights but it was focused primarily although there were part in the United States part of the emancipation with the sla anti-slavery etc. women, black uh African-American women participated in it, but it was really addressing more white women's issues. Second wave of feminism came in the 60s and 70s and it shifted attention to a more um for legal rights to social, cultural and economic inequalities. Then the third wave in the 1990s to the 2000s uh embraced the diversity of individualism and more about intersectionality. How different identities intersect with one another. And by that I mean for example the language the language that I speak and being female is different. My my experience of the world and how I'm treated in the world is different from a white woman. So in this way in the United States I have to deal with racism because I they associate Spanish with being Hispanic which is sometimes stigmatized and my experience of the world is different. So I may have I also uh my social class right by being more ed uh my social class being more educated more um economically uh stable. My experience of the world is very different from a migrant worker from Mexico who has just crossed the border who has absolutely nothing and no resol resources to rely on. My our experiences are completely different. So those things the different different identities such as gender, education, ethnicity, culture, race, blah blah blah blah blah, they intersect one another. They overlap in different ways. So suppose that you were I mean I am a woman. I am a woman of color. I would say my my experience I have several imagine I am a woman of color because I am Latina and I am dark complexed and we come Hispanics come in different hues as you well know all kinds of shades
Maximiliano: literally I'm Latino and I look white as hell
Patricia Bolaños: I know that's what I'm saying we come in all kinds of shades but most people think that of course I I've been confused with being Indian as well from from India really Not yes not Native American but from India but I'm not anyway. So I am a woman. I am of color. I am from South America. I speak Spanish. I am of the middle class. I am a former Catholic or you know I'm nonpracticing Catholic. I'm a feminist. All of those things have intersect to make me who who I am. All of those things. And that all of those little identities, all those little individualities that we fit into, they collide. So each one experiences the world differently and our identities are different in that sense. I I am cisgender, which means my sex coincides with my gender identity.
Maximiliano: I see.
Patricia Bolaños: And you are too. So when someone is queer or non-binary, non-binary means there's a two sides, male or female, right?
Maximiliano: Mhm.
Patricia Bolaños: binary. So when they're non-binary, they're neither one or the other, right? And it's really up to up to each one of us to to tell others who we are because if I wouldn't want someone to call me, you know, Patricio because I don't identify as a Patricio. I identify as Patricia, right?
Maximiliano: So I would want to correct them.
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Maximiliano: So then what explores the fourth wave? Because I think we we stopped at the at the third.
Patricia Bolaños: Oh yes. The fourth wave you have it's you know from the uh from the 20110s 2015 to the present. No. And these are in this wave is more focused on the online activism, social media platforms and a strong focus on body autonomy. Okay. Doing what you want with your body, what your body should look like. and then preventing sexual violence and particularly um fighting against um rape culture.
Maximiliano: I see.
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: Okay. So
Patricia Bolaños: but femini you know the feminism the fe feminism and the women's studies and gender studies also are very humanist movement movements about the qualities and the capabilities of the human being of human endeavor of human abilities and skills and talents and things like that. It's very socialist in the sense that it wants equity and equality for all human beings regardless for men, for women, for in for everyone regardless of the sex or identity. Yeah. In that sense. Yeah.
Maximiliano: Weirdly, weirdly enough, now that now that the fourth uh wave came came to be, uh I've I've kind of see it as a weird mix that is fairly liberal because it has to do with uh the self uh the right of the self. It's not so much group identity anymore,
Maximiliano: but it's more about the own identity. So, weirdly enough, the the fourth wave is now uh going more towards uh the right or the the well the liberals now or what I would call the liberals in in my head at least.
Maximiliano: Maybe not in America, but yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: Well, it could be. Well, the thing is, remember that what all of these these movements have been doing and these kinds of methods of analysis of culture, what they're really analyzing is how our world functions, how hierarchical societies and structures um inform political systems, businesses, entrepreneurial endeavors, uh global interactions, economic exchange. it all all of those aspects of our of of the world. So for example, what gender studies has done is really is to examine how the inequalities so that they can uh exact some change. Okay. So they critically analyze uh everything from the labor conditions of men, women, children, interex individuals. For example, bathrooms, should bathrooms only for women or recently in in my in my institution as well, should there be bathrooms that are open to anyone? Like in some European countries, there's one bathroom and who's ever there the other they they should leave it relatively clean so the next person can use it. So both women and men can use it. But now here there's men only, men only, women only. And with Mr. Trump, now you are your identity has to correspond with the sex that you were born with. So you know, people interex individuals or transgender individuals have to use a bathroom. You know, they're limited in their choices. So they if they were born if they present themselves if they if they present themselves as female but they were born male they would have to go to a male bathroom. How uncomfortable is that going to be for them and for the people in the bathrooms themselves? So see this this is also very practical sense and it's all political at the same time.
Maximiliano: Yeah. Well it's about rights. Anything that is about rights is is political. Well rights and duties anything.
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Maximiliano: Um so I want to go to the next question then that I did say uh which is why is it relevant?
Patricia Bolaños: Well, I think it's relevant because to function in the world and to thrive in the world, I think we need to understand the world that we are born into and how it works, how it's uh it structures and how what is considered natural and normal. Okay? And in history, how those have changed. So for example um uh homosexuality in the classical period in Greece was normalized.
Maximiliano: Yeah it was.
Patricia Bolaños: And now it's you know then it wasn't and now it isn't then then it was again in the 80s you know with the gay rights movement and now with a push back from the right it is considered you know it's pushing the the the pendulum backwards in a in in a sense. So this is all you know the discipline in in in general we have to understand that cultural the culture in which we born into and the ones that are in around the world at any moment can change depending on the period in which we live. So there's a cross historical and cultural context. So identities and even for example businesses at one point they were more conscious about um uh about having you know more representation by women. They were trying to hire more women right because there was that inequity the imbalance. So that affected so hiring changed a little bit. They created more laws to protect workers from uh sexual harassment from etc. Yes. So I I think that it's important and I think you know given the political climate and when we live and this kind of pendulum turn to the right both in Europe, Latin America and clearly the United States you know we have to be careful about the progress that we make and the progress that we're losing. M
Maximiliano: for example in United States access to abortion is limited in some states you know and that was considered a human it's considered a human rights by the United Nations which is reproductive rights so I think we have to be keenly aware we have to be cognizant of how our world is changing and the world that and be participants in encouraging change, positive change for the generation that comes. I have a daughter. Should my daughter be raped or something or has a an an unwanted pregnancy, do I want her to carry this child for 9 months? If she lives in a state where she cannot get rid of it, even if she has a health crisis, she's forced to go through a health crisis even if she doesn't want to carry that child. What is the ethical components of having an unwanted child? The rights, you know, the rights to life. Life is what concerns me is that the rights of life some of the some of the extreme they are in favor of carrying uh you know not not uh having an abortion, carrying the life of the baby, the fetus to full term. But they're pro gun. pro uh capital punishment and they're only care about while the baby is in the in in utero. But once the baby's born, are they going to fund their education, their food programs or all of those things? It's only about controlling women's bodies. They don't care so much once in the United States in particular, they don't care so much about the that life once it's outside the woman's body, but make sure that the woman carries that life. That's what they care about. So, it's, you know, it's because I have a daughter, because I have nieces, because I I care about that issue, but I also care about my nephews and my son.
Maximiliano: Yeah. So, I want to I want to I want to go there. So um the thing is uh we're talking now about more about uh the the rights that this supports but I want to shift it towards uh the the the question that I asked which was
Maximiliano: why is no no which which is uh what is gender studies in particular.
Patricia Bolaños: Yeah. Well, gender studies is an an inter interdisciplinary
Patricia Bolaños: field of study that critically critically analyzes you know different the culture cultures through across historical and cultural contexts through a gender lens. So it's looking at okay how does gender what was gender like in classical times? Oh, homosexuality was okay. They
Maximiliano: Why would it be important to know this now? I know that there was a very uh well the the last uh economics uh economics
Patricia Bolaños: forum.
Maximiliano: The economic forum. Yeah. Well, there was one uh in the economics forum that you we talked about, but well, you gave me the the PDF to to uh but I was uh mainly going uh about this uh professor of economics that her study was mentioned in the sorry she she actually won the Nobel Prize and she saw uh history through the economics and the gender lens. So I want to I want to know uh and specifically for the audience uh I'm asking why is this is why is this topic so relevant?
Patricia Bolaños: Well the thing I think it's relevant today because it is important that we continue fighting for the rights we still have not achieved. This is an ongoing fight because we have a structure that is still a strong structure that supports what has been a patriarchal uh hierarchy, right? Where people who if you're not if you are not white male in particular considering those two elements who has the power attend to be white males and continue. So why would they want to change a system that does not benefit them? Right. So by holding both people people who are not necessarily male and white, why change the system and give them more rights and economy because it's going to affect their b their their wealth etc or limit their political power. So I think it's important that we continue this because oftentimes some some even I've come across young women who do not like to be called feminists. It's almost the f word, an F-word, you know, because it's bad being a feminist. And
Maximiliano: for me, a feminist is not only fighting about women. It's fighting fighting for everyone. Fighting for men's rights as well. Men sometimes are facing crisis. Particularly lesser women are doing well. More and more men are not getting as much education as they want, as they need as they should get because women are thriving in that. more women are getting uh university degrees, advanced studies, etc. Why is that? And that's where gender studies comes in to analyzes those things. It's not only about women. What is going on in society? What is going on in the culture? What is it about culture that's creating this phenomena? What is it about the policies? What is it about the politics that is making this this change? Now, university studies are now now in the downturn because they're they're focusing more the value of the university. Is it worth spending in the United States up to $250,000 over four years to get a degree that they may not use in the future? You see what I mean? So, we have to I think it's important to continue with this field of study. It's just like the same thing. Why continue studying mathematics? We don't necessar we use you know multiply divide add why study calculus some people will ask if I'm never going to know
Maximiliano: right
Maximiliano: it's a field of inquiry it's of how to better understand our world and I think we are poor for it if we don't understand our world
Maximiliano: I think uh I actually was thinking well why you were saying that answer okay so uh I used to study economics I dropped out by the So I'm I'm a special special case in that in that area going going on the low education side. But uh yeah um as you were saying that there's many times where you put the gender lens and actually factoring that and then saying okay how can we not equalize the result but equalize the opportunity. When when when that happens then you you you create basically a natural rule so to say which is the best for competition the best for well anything really
Patricia Bolaños: and that's what gender studies is asking if it's asking you if it's looking at the society saying well women are not being hired here why is that
Maximiliano: what is it about politics that's not allowing women to end or what is it about society that is creating more u deaths or assassinations or killings of transgender individuals.
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Maximiliano: In the streets. What is it about society understanding that we're accustomed to thinking well through through the economic lens and saying well what's the benefit economic benefit of taking this job? I'm getting more money more benefits. But if you have to look at it also through a gender lens. What if this I'm going to agree to this salary? I was very furious. By the way, my my daughter was hired by a company and I said you must negotiate your first salary. It doesn't they said oh no I don't want to negotiate because
Maximiliano: 100%.
Patricia Bolaños: And I you must negotiate your salary. Your entrance salary is important pivotal because that depends on how much money you will make down in in 10 years from now. She said well I really want this job. If I if I want if I negotiate this salary they might say no because there's a lot of people applying for this position. I couldn't believe it. I was I was thinking, how is this possible? A modern young woman with a mother that studies gender studies and who's push who has fought against this goes does not fight for her own rights. But there you have it. There you have it. Fear. What is it about this young woman that's still fearful of not being accepted and is willing to accept less salary for a job that another man can do as well and she can do as well as as a man?
Maximiliano: Mhm.
Maximiliano: Well guys, thank you very much for listening uh to uh this day's episode. uh by the way, we are keep going to keep uh talking uh for sure. We're going to uh keep this conversation going, I I really got some interesting questions for next uh chapter. uh but if you enjoy this conversation and want to support the show, uh you can do so through our Patreon where for uh the you can actually get an email with the details of the frameworks, okay? how uh Patricia uh here, how she thinks, how she operates and what lenses and what uh frameworks does she utilize to take her own decisions. For example, in this case, uh how to negotiate your salary. uh but well, thank you very much for this.
Patricia Bolaños: Benefits, benefits and daycare.
Maximiliano: Sorry,
Patricia Bolaños: benefits and daycare. maternal patern maternity and paternal leave.
Maximiliano: Um could you walk me through your process of making like a high stake decision?
Patricia Bolaños: Well, generally I think you know uh I a high stake decisions I tend to make a list of the pros and the cons but at the same time I also of the costs of making those decisions.
Maximiliano: Okay.
Patricia Bolaños: So I might say I can change positions and get more money but it might have less benefits right. So everything comes at a cost whether it's time with your family whether it's uh less time for research or teach teaching overloads etc. So I would say it's ascertaining whether uh the pros and the cons and also I have alternatives. I have alternative A, alternative B and alternative C. I come from a country in which not everything functions as it should. As it should. So you always have to have have contingency plans.
Maximiliano: So plan A doesn't work. I have to go to plan C and then go to plan D.
Patricia Bolaños: Yeah. You have a goal in in in Latin America. You have a goal and the way you get there is like well
Maximiliano: where the the wind takes you. uh uh then what do you reckon? So if you make lists, what variables actually matter? What like what are the uh what are the variables that you would take and how would you actually prioritize them?
Patricia Bolaños: Well, I think one of them um more than anything else if I were to make for example uh it depends on the the what kind of choices I am going to make. Is it a is it a professional choice? Is it a family decision? Is it it depends. So if it was something that related to my family, I definitely tend to make choices that would benefit the most people. So it's kind of utilitarian. Well, how much sacrifice do I need to make and how many more people can I benefit in that sense? Because a family is what if it's it were a professional choice of course it would be one one professional benefits how it impacts my teaching and my research time and uh that when if it's other choices for example it would be depending of the safety because still you know travel to traveling to certain countries by myself you know it depends which country it is and how much if it's a country that is uh warridden it my choices would it be different
Maximiliano: it wouldn't be the first priority
Patricia Bolaños: safety correct and also the impact it would have on the people that I leave behind my children hopefully hopefully they would be not I don't want them to suffer but they would say it's too bad she's gone
Maximiliano: e the other decisions it would be economic benefits so I think it depends on the decision So I would use different different perspect depending on the choice but it's yeah
Maximiliano: uh being a um being a being so close to the gender studies field would you take the gender uh lens at some point whether it's through like a process that you're you're sorry like a would you take the gender uh field as in uh how to explain this.
Patricia Bolaños: Do I consistently use the gender lens in my daily life?
Maximiliano: Yes,
Patricia Bolaños: of course. Without question. Without question. I live I I am a gendered being in this world. Therefore, I'd live a different experience than a might a man would. And my experience is different. I have friends who are I have friend who's African-American. I have a friend who's of Norwegian descent. I have friends who are Chileans and live here. Yeah, it's true. And and don't speak the language. So, their experience of this world is very different than mine because I am fluent in English because they they're very fair. they're chilling and they're very fair. So race affects me more because you know sometimes I I run into people who are racist and who are not happy to see me because simply of my my skin color. So
Maximiliano: so yeah I I live through a gendered I yeah I experience the world through a gendered lens. And have you seen that uh non that there's a difference between uh people who are uh sorry I don't want to say it uncorrectly cuz I well I I don't yeah I don't usually speak uh like this in in my dayto-day but would you uh say uh uh fem f fem uh a woman. I would say a uh born Oh, no. Not a woman. Okay, this is the terrible mistake that I'm making. But would you say a female?
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Maximiliano: Sees uh sees the world in some lenses and they normally tend to do so and males do so as well. And what are those uh questions that they ask themselves? I don't know if the question was properly made but
Patricia Bolaños: I don't quite understand the question.
Maximiliano: Okay, the question is what lenses do uh born males uh utilize normally utilize then and then what uh lenses do uh born females uh utilize? Oh my god, this is so hard because I normally don't use the vocabulary. But yeah,
Patricia Bolaños: but don't worry about it. It does. It's you got the idea across. I think what happens is that the lens that you are born, you're not born with a particular lens. You acquire that through socialization, through being exposed to your culture. So, so for example, males in in Saudi Arabia, for example, they are born they they are in a society in which of course they enjoy a lot of privilege, a lot of a lot more power, a lot more freedom.
Maximiliano: Mhm.
Patricia Bolaños: And women in Saudi Arabia or other very restrictive countries would be would understand that in their culture they must cover up. They must be female. They must be demure. in etc. Correct.
Maximiliano: Okay. So that is through socialization and socialization elements of socialization you'll get those lenses if you will that way of thinking through your family structure
Maximiliano: your friends through schools right
Maximiliano: so what what are the exact questions if if you could uh transform them into questions what is like a typical male question uh born male question to half through socialization or whatever.
Patricia Bolaños: Well, I I think if male uh born uh males who are born males or cis males generally what they should ask themselves is what kind of privilege do I enjoy and how could I help those that don't have those privilege also have access to those privileges.
Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So my my question was more towards what do they normally ask themselves that that born females wouldn't and then the other way around.
Patricia Bolaños: Oh h
Maximiliano: sorry sorry for the question. It's a pretty difficult one. I know. But
Patricia Bolaños: one of the questions that definitely uh female males would not ask themselves is
Patricia Bolaños: is it safe for me to go to be outside at this time?
Maximiliano: Yeah. I think I've never Well, probably yes if I'm like in a in like a ghetto in Peru, but like beyond that,
Patricia Bolaños: right? I think there's there's a level of privilege and a sense of security, physical and bodily security with females and also with people who do are not male in general. So women we always live constantly who's some I feel someone following me why someone so this kind of lack of safety. So no matter what age you know you're thinking oh that man is staring me a little weird. I wonder what what he wants. So there's always um a sense that there's not always an environment in which we can just relax and be ourselves.
Patricia Bolaños: So I think males enjoy that privilege.
Maximiliano: And what do you reckon uh males then ask themselves? They do ask themselves I it's kind of hard to answer that questions what males would ask themselves about gender related to gender.
Maximiliano: Yeah. That that well not not about not related to gender specific but they would ask themselves and sis uh woman sis woman. Yeah. Wouldn't Um I you've stopped me there because not being a cis male I don't understand. I've studied some men's studies. There is
Patricia Bolaños: um why do Yeah. Hm. I think if a AfricanAmerican males in particular would ask themselves, why do uh people, not only females, see me as an aggressor, as as as a as some an element of fear that that I am to be feared. So the level of, for example, of arrests of African-Americans in this country is a lot higher. the number of men that African-American men that are in prison is a lot higher when the proportion of crimes committed
Maximiliano: are by white males.
Patricia Bolaños: Interesting.
Maximiliano: That's that's actually very interesting.
Maximiliano: I wouldn't have I wouldn't have thought that at all. I would have said like it's equal, but
Patricia Bolaños: no.
Maximiliano: Interesting.
Patricia Bolaños: And it's you know they it's a field of study but incarceration and gender studies. So they go into different areas and the number of incarceration that a lot of people consider is the next the next form of slavery a kind of slavery.
Maximiliano: Yeah. you know. So, yeah. Yeah. And then the other other questions
Maximiliano: maybe maybe I can help it being a sis male, but I I heard in in one interview, I don't remember where it was. Um but they said um that men have to ask this question about where does my utility lie because there's no clear one. There's no clear uh straightforward thinking saying okay my body says I could technically be whatever and therefore I have no straight direction to go to would that would that be maybe something the thing is I don't know how to phrase it as well but
Patricia Bolaños: right well it it could be I mean the sense at this point in time. There's a lot of that people talk about a crisis of young men,
Maximiliano: you know,
Patricia Bolaños: a crisis of young men that have little direction, uh, little motivation. There's a lot of access to the internet which can serve can be a tool for the good, looking things up, getting access to the information. At the same time, what has happened is that the prevalence of, for example, pornography in the internet, gambling, all of those things has really put a lot of young men in crisis. For example, a lot of the perfor sexual performance of young males now with real women has been impacted negatively
Maximiliano: because men are accustomed to seeing that what is happening in in pornography pornography and films and things like that is what really happens in real life and it does not.
Maximiliano: Yeah. No. For anybody there watching, no just doesn't. It's it's the so but the thing is when they see it often enough so there's a sexual crisis in that sex with their sexual performance.
Maximiliano: They are no longer being able to be ar sexually aroused with a real woman.
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Maximiliano: Now even young males are dating are dating AI
Maximiliano: that that I find crazy. So I I think it has to do with this this question because um I may well we don't know the question yet. u I think I think we could have another another uh another interview that that would be very fun if you
Patricia Bolaños: but this is exactly what gender studies is studying is investigating is researching
Patricia Bolaños: about our society. So it's not only about women, it's about all of the gamut of the gender presentation that we have.
Maximiliano: Okay. So u now I want to move on to what is like rules of thumb and so on. u called horistics. u So u what do you u rely on repeatedly? I would say
Patricia Bolaños: I what do I rely on repeatedly for what? to make decisions. To make quick decisions, what do you rely on repeatedly?
Patricia Bolaños: I think well personally I tend to be impulsive you know I tend to be impulsive but I tend to also be u it depends on the cost. How much is it going to cost me? And not only economically, but it could be emotionally, it could be timewise, it could be effort, it could be, you know, distress, all of those things. u But with some things I'm very u impulsive, but other things I'm very meditative. And sometimes I will ask someone that I rely my daughter is very very u ve very clear about things. Well, if you do this, this is the this is the consequence. So, she'll take a look at the consequences now. So, the ones with the done with with u the decision with these consequences, I would do this, but if you do the other, that would be okay, too. So I I sometimes I rely on people that I trust whose u whose u advice I trust and I believe would be worth listening. But then again, I'm also very impatient. It's it's it's one of one of my flaws. Hubers, not hubers, but one of my fatal flaws. Very impatient. I want and that's really unfair because I'm expecting other people to function to the same degree and same to the same degree of speed or level of understanding as much as I I do. So I put I have high standards for myself but I I impose those standards on other people which is really unfair. So but yeah so quick it depends on the decision. I rely on other people. I do analysis again based on different u different aspect how much is it going to how u how much is it how much am I going to benefit and others are going to benefit so more utilitarian I would say but also
Maximiliano: as a as a gender studies
Patricia Bolaños: I I don't I don't do things I don't do things that are unethical so for example I do not buy or refuse to buy certain stores because of how they treat people or they don't advance people or they're they're anti-gay or they're anti So yeah, so I shop where I put my money where my mouth is.
Maximiliano: Okay. u And then how would you decide what information is u relevant or worth paying attention to especially in the field of u of gender studies? It ha yeah it has to be I mean studies I do peerreview studies first by far it's something that is reviewed by other scholars that is reliable that has been proven to be true but
Maximiliano: for somebody not in the scholar community could you explain what it is
Patricia Bolaños: u peer review is something for example if there's an article that is published in a in a journal
Maximiliano: Mhm. u and that journal has standards. So in order for you to be published it your article you have to send it for review and that there there will be a committee that actually looks at a panel that will look at that paper and say this person is actually the the the premises that proposes are are viable. They're true. They are tested and they're yes they so there's someone that judges prejudges before they publish. Now,
Maximiliano: so peer review would be one of the main things.
Patricia Bolaños: Peer review is the main main thing. Peer review. So in a journal that is peer reviewed because now you can get on the internet you can get all kinds of information and there's a lot of false information.
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: Right. Like for examp I don't you know even on TV there's things that people will well and you know to be quite honest with you political agenda now sometimes just purposely u says lies and repeats them flagrantly and knowing what regardless of what the facts really are. So it's an alternative reality sometimes that is created. So peer-reviewed reliable sources do and doing my research. I just don't take things for granted. I just take a look at both sides and you know it it's it's work but it's actually worth doing because then what you're reading is actually you're feeding your brain and not distracting your brain with false facts.
Maximiliano: Um then u what do you reckon? u Um so when you read this information it's completely against what you thought at the beginning
Maximiliano: what would say is or what usually causes that change in in your in in your understanding of the world.
Patricia Bolaños: So you mean do I allow a different opinions or views for me? Can they influence me?
Maximiliano: Yeah. But how mostly what type of information?
Patricia Bolaños: Well, I think it depends on the argument and the evidence they present. If there's no evidence and the argument is poor, I'm not going to be convinced cuz you can tell me this guy this guy is purple. Is it what is the evidence of this? At what time? Where was it? Or is Borealis in fact in the northern north pole? You know, with that is actually feasible. But you know I need to know the source who is saying this and why what is their agenda who is their public because knowing who is providing the information is important.
Maximiliano: You would say you would say that that knowing the the ideology so to say of the person is important.
Patricia Bolaños: Yeah. I think it's what is important is who is Yeah. Who is the person that's giving this information? And what purpose is that per that information serving? Is it to gain money? Is it a money scheme? Is it something to convince? I know why they're doing this. The purpose that they have and the public to whom they're they're doing it, right?
Maximiliano: So, for example, if someone is calling you on the phone and say, "Oh, I am from this agency agency and I seek need your your data." Well, you know, I would want to ask, can you provide information regarding how you're connected to this agency and why do I need I don't do business over the phone because there's a lot of scammers as well. And this is a kind of scam. It's intellectual scam.
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: When they are trying to fool you into believing into something that is really not true, they're scamming you. They're not taking your money, but they're taking your intellectual wealth. So u what article or could you could you say a moment or an article something that actually u where your thinking evolved significantly in the gender studies? u
Patricia Bolaños: yes. You know what the article that Yeah. an article that I read several years ago. I mean it feels like a century. I think it was it was not quite centuries but a couple of decades is called the five sexes revisited by an FTO Sterling.
Maximiliano: We'll put that in the link.
Patricia Bolaños: Yes.
Maximiliano: If you if you if sorry in the show notes. u I think I think that's u then a good one. Okay. Cuz if you if it changed your mind then I'm sure I'm sure it could change mine for sure.
Patricia Bolaños: Well, I was very naive because I was thinking okay. So the but it was it's an important piece because it actually it it u it u argues that biological sex exists on a diverse spectrum
Maximiliano: as opposed to the categories of male and female.
Patricia Bolaños: Right.
Maximiliano: Okay. the bi the the bipolar, you know. So there's that was like, okay, so there's more sexes. It's oh my god, interex individuals. There's even and some people contend that there's more than than that and now there's 17 sexes. So and I think there's one other one. I think the there was an update to that article. was called the five sexes revisited again by Foster Sterling
Patricia Bolaños: when she acknowledges that her initial five sex model was slightly artificial and that the true spectrum of interex variations is far too complex to be captured in just three extra categories. So yeah, and that would be interesting. I really recommend that for you particularly because you can understand with with your sister currently
Maximiliano: how in nature how it's not just vagina and penis. No. Well, actually, u not only u have I do I have a u well a non-binary sister, but I also lived in a transgender community in u Berlin for about 3 months. Three, four, three months.
Patricia Bolaños: Really?
Maximiliano: It was it was Yeah, it was great. It was u well they didn't like me that much but
Patricia Bolaños: well did you were you impacted by that? How did that impact you personally in your thinking and your beliefs and values?
Maximiliano: Now I would say that the main u thing that I realized is that they're normal people like it's cuz you have this image as as a u cisgender u male I I'll call it. u or as somebody not inside the community and somebody who doesn't think that much about gender, you truly just don't have a clue of u what are they thinking about? And then you go into this community and then you realize, oh, they they have like normal jobs. They go normally to work. They just completely normal people. they they're just misrepresented in the internet or they just take the clip where where they like are being outrageous so to say or being very emotional about something but but it's not like that like in the normal well they do take hormones u some of them
Patricia Bolaños: which was a little bit weird because well it's like being living with teenagers for a while.
Patricia Bolaños: Well I would say that I wouldn't call it weird I just call it different. The thing is because
Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: They're also very emotional males
Maximiliano: when they're look at the football the the crazy football fanatics.
Patricia Bolaños: Yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: They're very emotional. They're willing to kill someone
Maximiliano: easily or
Patricia Bolaños: No, no, no. I mean it's it's like the thing is u they take those footage footages. It's like taking u like all the memes of football and just thinking oh this is a footballer which is not you know
Patricia Bolaños: and that's the thing you know there is there's a diversity of people even amongst those communities and the thing is u I think the more that you are connected to the more empathy you build. I'm u I'm an empath to begin with. I'm very empathetic and sometimes
Maximiliano: I'm not I'm not that much. I gotta say it was a it was a tough lesson though.
Maximiliano: It was good.
Patricia Bolaños: Oh, good. I'm glad. Well, the thing is, you know, you develop empathy for the circumstances in which they have to live every day and the hate that they have to live with,
Maximiliano: you know, as a human being just because they're different. I mean, I'm u I'm different because I'm u I'm brown in this community and some people are very nice to me, some people are not. But I've reached a point in the nature it's like, take me as I am. You don't like me, too bad. So too bad, so sad. It sucks for you. you're missing out. But you know now in other times it would hurt my feelings. I would feel hurt. But nowadays I just u you know your loss. But the thing is we actually learn from the the differences of other people. We learn that you know what maybe the odd ones are us and not them because we often divide divide the world between us and them because we look for differences. The problem is that there's more things that we have in common with them than are differences. Even with men, men and women, there are more things that we have in common with men than differences. There are more differences among women, you know.
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: Sometimes I grew up with two with two two brothers. So I'm into sports. I was very competitive. I love playing tennis. I love running.
Maximiliano: I'm not into sports that much.
Patricia Bolaños: I'm into sports. I hate cooking. I hate cleaning all those. No, not for me. Not my not my thing. But at the same time, you know, we had lots in common. We still talk the World Cup. I'm into the World Cup. It's about to start in 2 minutes. So, we're into Who you going for? We're rooting things like that.
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: We are very different. Yes. And we experience the world. And they experience although they may experience my brothers may experience racism, they don't experience the racism, the sexism. Now all I need to be is me to be a lesbian and that would be trifecta three levels of u of prejudice that would have to face right.
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Maximiliano: u so it seems like u the the way of thinking that you that the gender studies study have is mostly about narratives and systems. So, how do how do people so to say circulate or navigate there we go u the system and how does it affect them? Am I am I am I right or
Patricia Bolaños: I think you're right, but I think the next step is really about how how to change the system,
Maximiliano: how to improve the system because it's not only about studying what happens, but it's actually getting agency and making a change in policy change and implementing u practices of anti-racism and you know all of those things because it's not only you You know, when people tell me sometimes, "Oh, no, I'm not a racist." I I said, "My question is, well, what are you doing to fight racism?" If you're not fighting a race, if you're not fighting racism, then you're enabling racism. It's kind of that clearer,
Patricia Bolaños: right? To be to stand by. If someone is being killed in front of you and you're preventing the murder, aren't you kind of an accomplice? If you see that there's sexism and you're not doing something to prevent it, you're part of the problem.
Maximiliano: So would you say that u the lens that most people don't have but they should definitely is this lens of u gender so that this type of things don't happen.
Patricia Bolaños: It would be helpful. So if if if a cisgender male for example would start seeing u the world more as a cisgender woman aka u the fear of u of u at night think let's say I would invite my sister to come over I would say okay how would my sister see this space would it see is it safe or would it not
Maximiliano: exactly
Patricia Bolaños: yes Yes, I'm progressing. I'm progressing.
Maximiliano: Well, I'm still learning. I'm still learning. I'm still in progress. And that's the thing, you know, it's living in the other person's skin. Think about your sister, you know, the experiences that she has gone through and how her her childhood living in in the body in which she was born into.
Maximiliano: Yeah. And the number and you're very lucky because a lot of a lot of people transgender, queer or non-binary often commit suicide because the world is so hard to live in and if some someone else doesn't kill them first. So it's, u you know, we require more empathy and trying to actually take a look at other people as real human beings who experience the world and who also suffer. We We suffer in this world and we just have to be able to u help each other out. And nothing is going to change. Absolutely nothing is going to change if we don't have cis males, all males, everybody being allies to all kinds of to women, to transgender people, to queers, to non-binary individuals, etc.
Maximiliano: Yeah. So, this is exactly the premise of the podcast. u we at least the team and I think that if you could think differently u with other lenses with other ways u of thinking u there's nothing to be substructed from that from that process in this example of me inviting my sister and then putting the lens of gender how would she experience it that for example u it like it completely changes her experience of the matter but it just it it just doesn't impact me at all because well I'm u I'm not thinking about me at all in u that case but it could u putting other lenses or well other problems
Patricia Bolaños: but using using the lens a gender lens for you is impactful because it changes now how you view your sister in the future and
Maximiliano: u
Maximiliano: the past
Patricia Bolaños: and then our colleagues u leadersh because there they have diff a lot people like your sister have difficulty obtaining positions have difficulty progressing advancing and even going through the streets right but if we stand up with them and for them it'll make the it make it easier for them and more acceptable you Oh yeah.
Maximiliano: u Which of your mental models u would you work u would you say would work in leadership, startups or personal life?
Patricia Bolaños: You know it's it's difficult. I think personally in a personal life I think I always function under an ethical model.
Maximiliano: It's more about what is right. Sometimes it comes being right comes at a price. It's more difficult to be to do the right thing. It's easier to take a shortcut, to cheat someone, to short change something. But for me, it's it's really important u to be ethical, to treat, you know, to do everything the right the right thing. And the right thing, not by any religion st religious standard, but by own rights, what is good, you know, be kind to someone. It, you know, it they're working hard. Leave a tip for a waiter. You know, they did a good service. They served you well. They the job is difficult. So, my I have this problem. My brothers have always called me Mother Teresa, Mater Rosa. My father would give us u an allowance every week, a small amount of money. And in my country where I used to live, there were a lot of beggars on the street. Fortunately, they're not anymore, but u there are a few. I'm not saying they don't exist anymore. There are still a few. And as we were going on the streets with my brothers going to get ice cream or something to spend our money, I would end up investing in some of the beggars, you know, I would give them some cuz I felt sorry for them. But then my brother
Maximiliano: I'm I'm I'm interested of your choosing of words. I would invest in them.
Patricia Bolaños: That's how you see it.
Maximiliano: Oh, no. I didn't notice.
Patricia Bolaños: Okay. Now,
Maximiliano: okay.
Patricia Bolaños: Well, the thing is you're investing in their s sustenance and their survival. You know, back then I think drug addicts and things were there were not in that in the streets so visibly. It was really poor people and mostly indigenous people and
Maximiliano: elderly and a lot of women.
Patricia Bolaños: So,
Maximiliano: yeah,
Patricia Bolaños: I would I would hand out what little coins I had. So by the time we got to the ice cream parlor, I had none left. And then the cost came when my brothers, I was there with none. And I was like look, you know, sad that they were buying ice cream and I could not afford an ice cream anymore, you know. So they that's what they would tease me. But that's the, you know, that's why I think I function. So So my brother, my family still, my children still to this day, they're just taking advantage of you. But you know what? It's okay. That's on them, not on me. I got a I got a weird fact for you on economics. u They call it God's hand.
Maximiliano: u Which is u for every dollar of course the study was in dollars. For every dollar that you get u you spend in giving it away can be charity, can be giving somebody money on the streets. You get something like $1.78. u in the u future future years, which is fairly weird.
Patricia Bolaños: Wow. I should be a millionaire by now according to my u to my brothers.
Maximiliano: Just saying. Just saying. Maybe maybe you are secretly. I don't know.
Patricia Bolaños: Maybe. No, I recently I need to update my u my will,
Maximiliano: you know. It's been 15 years. My husband died about 14 years ago. So, I need to update my will. So my children I donate right now to the Mayo Clinic because they took excellent care of my my my my husband.
Maximiliano: Mhm.
Patricia Bolaños: So it's it's it's a modest amount. I'm I'm a professor. I I I I don't have a lot of money.
Maximiliano: And then I also invest in a public television which is has you know great shows, quality television, u Sesame Street for children, programs about science. So, we don't we don't we don't we're not investment advices. Now that you said anything like that, we're not investment advisor. Please don't put your money.
Patricia Bolaños: You don't these are not investors. These are donations. I donate.
Maximiliano: Oh, I see. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Patricia Bolaños: These are donations. Yeah. So, I donate u modestly, but I donate. my do my daughter of course who is very practical was insensed that I was donating and and when I update my will and she stopped doing so because you're giving our money away. I was like wait a minute it's my money. So yeah but it's it's something that I I believe in like I buy only where I think shops that I agree with. Some that I don't agree with I do not I do not purchase stuff there. I'm against supporting them. So a long short story short, I'm a ter I'm a terrible money according to my children because I donate too much and I don't invest invest enough in myself or making money. Making money is not a goal for me. I mean I want to have money, yes, so I can survive, but I don't there's no need for me to be wealthy. I don't want to be a multi-millionaire. I wouldn't know what to do with the money. If I would, I probably donate it anyway. So that's why I'm I'm terrible with money according to my children.
Maximiliano: Well, would you say then u this would bail at in any other industry?
Maximiliano: u Um this this idea of giving investing in people.
Patricia Bolaños: Yes. Well, not not of investing in people because you use the specific word for charity. So I would I would go for charity. Would it be u sorry you used another word you used being self selfless I think it was. No it was something else. Um
Patricia Bolaños: well being selfish would that fail in any other industry?
Maximiliano: No I think it's very important. I think there's there are tax advantages in donation in United States in particular. So a lot of donations can be are taxdeductible depending right. So
Maximiliano: it's 25 in the UK at least. I know that.
Patricia Bolaños: Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah.
Maximiliano: 25%.
Patricia Bolaños: But I I don't get anything back because I don't I don't my donations are very very modest. But the the thing is I think when you invest and I think there's ethically I believe that there is a responsibility and I my father and I disagree completely because we're in opposite political spectrums that there is a very important in investing in the community in which you made your fortune in which you live suppose this is what I've told my children I've told my father repeatedly which I don't know if it's very convincing to him but you know if I invest if I live in a beautiful fa man mansion I have cars everything but my neighbor lives in a hut and is on substance and salary doesn't have very much would it be surprising if I I'm robbed by them no so if I could share my wealth with my community would all be safer the criminal level would reduce, the level of happiness would increase, level of education would increase. So I benefit if my neighbor is does well as well.
Maximiliano: Well, u actually u that was the same idea that Europe had in the 16th century or something like that. That's what now you go and see and there's beautiful houses everywhere. Everybody lives u pretty comfortably u so to say I say so to say of course but that they live at a u standard of living that is pretty high and
Patricia Bolaños: exactly
Maximiliano: I mean that that was the main idea that the one that u that you're sharing right now
Patricia Bolaños: and there it doesn't mean that there's no abuse there aren't any abuses with that and there aren't any problems with that I mean think of some of the Nordic countries Denmark Denmark in particular is one of the happiest country according the world and Finland and Sweden and Norway they've invested in their people and their health care system etc. here you know people I mean my husband died of cancer and I came to realize some people could not afford the treatment because they didn't have healthcare here you would lose you would have to sell your house cuz healthc care is so expensive you would lose your home you would lose your everything due to medical debt
Maximiliano: and medical treatment should be a right a human right it's not it's not across the world people die because he cannot afford afford treatment. That that doesn't seem like progress. Doesn't seem humane. It is it isn't right. But then it's my ethics. You know, not everybody thinks like I do.
Maximiliano: Weirdly enough. Weirdly enough. Um I would I would go and u ask I'm going to ask you this directly u which is what are the weak points of your thinking system as in the gender studies thinking system.
Patricia Bolaños: I think part of the issue is the application of some of these values has been have been challenging because we have still a structure which is reluctant to change and we have not been sufficiently u good at gaining more allies. So I think going from the theory to theory to practice, theory and practice, you know, taking the values of equality and fighting for people and things like that, we're still fighting for that, but it's kind of hard to make it real in this world,
Maximiliano: right? So I think that is challenging and you know, some people give up. The other one is how can we sustain that with younger people when right now some people they're experiencing an economic crisis. Some people are some of their needs are more urgent and part of the issue is for example u Geratric Spac u wrote an article se couple of decades ago in which you know what is the use the utility of taking feminism to the third world what was called the third world which is really the developing world nowadays so if you go to an Andes Andian mountain I'm originally from Ecuador so if you go to a little town, a little hamlet up in the Andes Mountains where a woman is trying to survive by your husband in the system. How is that going to make sense to her?
Maximiliano: See what
Maximiliano: Yeah. Well, there was a a study that I that I saw on u garbage. Okay. This a little bit is is related towards u what is what people focus on.
Maximiliano: Mhm.
Maximiliano: So they they made a study where if you u on income and the garbage that that there was in the street
Maximiliano: and apparently after $10,000 u a year, you actually start thinking about garbage. Oh,
Maximiliano: so you literally don't notice the fact that there is that there is I don't know u like u paper on the streets or like cans or whatever if you don't earn above $10,000 or above. It would be very interesting to do that u research on u feminism at what point
Patricia Bolaños: there there is some on it already.
Maximiliano: Okay, my bad. Bye-bye.
Patricia Bolaños: And that's the thing, you know, at one point it has to come at a different pace. So, for example, u right now it's what's been big. Oh, about 10 Yeah. 10 10 seven more seven years ago. I think in Latin America there's been a swing against, you know, the women's rights and femicidio femicide and things like that, the abuses.
Maximiliano: North South America. forever. I got to I got to North South America. I will defend Chile in Argentina.
Patricia Bolaños: No, Argentina just recent they've had protest as well too.
Maximiliano: Oh yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: Oh yeah. Chile too. The women were naked in the streets and everybody was a gasast. Oh yeah.
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: Against femicide. The women the women should have the right to go naked in the streets if they wanted to. But for some for for North American women, for particularly American women and Canadian women, I would say, Anglo-Saxon women, they would say that's so old school. We we did that a long time ago. So it comes at different phases. I mean, in the 19th century, the the feminist movement came to Britain earlier than the United States.
Maximiliano: You know, women gained the vote in the United States in 1920s. Women could vote in Switzerland. I think it was, was it 1974?
Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah. Pretty late. pretty late in the game. You would say, you know, it comes to different communities, different cultures at different times, right?
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Maximiliano: Yeah. So, it's Yeah.
Maximiliano: I see. Perfect. Um u now with the next question is it's about the future of gender studies.
Maximiliano: I want to know what is changing now with AI because well basically every field is changing with AI. u what is changing with AI the technology and what is changing in society and how will it look let's say 20 20 30 years from now
Patricia Bolaños: gosh that's difficult to say because in u in 20 years I might be dead
Maximiliano: now no way
Patricia Bolaños: well I don't know at any I think you know I think this new generation your generation is much more cognizant about diversity diversity, about inequality, about the environment, and gender studies has been u in the forefront of those issues for a long time. So I think I'm expecting to see a lot more advances in that respect u and more ways in which you guys will use your vote and your money to make u to make changes in the u in the system right now in the social political and cultural systems. So I'm I'm I'm I'm optimistic to be quite honest with you. I'm
Maximiliano: You're very optimistic. Yeah, it sounds sounds sounds like it.
Patricia Bolaños: Yeah. I mean, simply by the fact that you've invited me to talk about this and to think about this and to be open-minded to change your mind to view your sister in through a different lens right now that you're not accustomed to to seeing to recognizing yourself and using the language as a cis male. Right.
Maximiliano: You were born, you were talking at the beginning at the first podcast about male born, being born male, and now you're talking as a Swiss male. You see what I mean?
Patricia Bolaños: There we go. Let's go. Progress.
Patricia Bolaños: There's progress. You see, there's little progress. Progress takes time. Changing people's minds takes time. Changing a entire culture takes time. And we're not a monolith. Each country's different in functions and different periods and different times and different customs and habits.
Maximiliano: Yeah. So,
Patricia Bolaños: yeah, it takes time. But I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic.
Maximiliano: Okay.
Patricia Bolaños: As long as as long as we also work with the environment because if we can't breathe, we can't change anything. We'll all be dead.
Maximiliano: That's a fair point. You know, I'm actually optimistic about the environment. Um yeah. u The main reason is because again what what you have said u which is u the new generation puts u where the ethics lie they put their money. u So what what have we seen? Well u renewable energies are getting more u subsidized and so on. u Um, so
Patricia Bolaños: also you're not invested. So, you're not invested in, for example, a buying a house. You're invested more in experiences. You're invested nowadays more and more young people are opting not to have children.
Maximiliano: I find that I find that weird. I I want a lot of children. I got to say
Patricia Bolaños: I just don't understand. I want a lot of them. Like, minimum five, please. That's That's the bare minimum. So if if anybody is out there like searching for like
Maximiliano: are you going to be able to afford them?
Patricia Bolaños: Yes. I Okay. In in my in my mind that's u that's no issue.
Maximiliano: I I can't afford the two children that I have.
Maximiliano: Fair enough. Fair enough. I don't I don't know. I just u I u on on the on the argument of money I think u people make what they they put constraints on themselves. So if u it is particularly so when when for for parents parents who earn less have less children and you could inverse it and say people who have less children earn less and that's that's the interesting factor in economics which normally
Maximiliano: Mhm.
Maximiliano: it goes both ways.
Maximiliano: Mhm. So normally if like if you would make a through through an through an economic lens if you would go and say I want to I want to earn as much as possible you would say I will have like 30 children and I don't know cuz you
Maximiliano: cuz you will make the money some
Patricia Bolaños: well well some well it depends it depends because there wouldn't be so many poor people because a lot of them cannot afford contraception so they have a lot of children and they're really poor.
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: You know, on the other hand, to be quite honest with you, I love my children to death, but if I did did not have children, I I would I would have retired already. I'd be on vacation. I have a lot more money cuz you have to invest in children. I mean, it's very easy to have children, right?
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: We don't even need a license to have children. We need a license to drive a car.
Maximiliano: That's actually a very good observation.
Patricia Bolaños: And the thing
Patricia Bolaños: you have to pay. You have to clothe them. You have to feed them. And you're going to have children and you're not going to educate them. You have to educate them to be prepared for this world. Why bring children into this world if you're not going to be there because you're busy working, making money so they can survive, and then invest in educating them and being with them. Not educating them as in a school, but sp u um form, I can't remember. u um
Maximiliano: formation.
Patricia Bolaños: Yeah, it's it's form. It needs to actually mold the individual providing u morals and values and principles. Those are very important too. You see, and that's something an investment that my husband and I made. We can only have two children because that's all we have able to spend on them to be realistic, not to be.
Maximiliano: I u I have a u a different perspective. I got to say
Patricia Bolaños: my husband wanted four and I told him not with these ovaries.
Maximiliano: I see. I see. Well, u yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: What's your perspective
Maximiliano: on on having
Patricia Bolaños: Okay. You're having more than two children.
Maximiliano: Okay. So, first of all, I u I would say u one, I don't have children, so it's very difficult for me to understand the the u issue.
Patricia Bolaños: Yeah. But u u am I am one of six for my dad and I think I I couldn't have had a better childhood. u And mainly because of the constraints, not because of the of the upside so to say. So well my dad was pretty privileged. So we we lived in a house in Santiago. the capital of Chile and so on so forth like we went on vacations u we went to a private school in u Chile so there's there's a lot of layers to it u
Patricia Bolaños: right
Maximiliano: but I would say that the fact that we there was years where we couldn't u do stuff u the fact that I u I don't know if I wanted something I had to go and sell almonds like I did when I was like 6 years old. Those u those were the facts that that actually I really appreciated the fact that
Maximiliano: I saw my dad working hard, not only talking about working hard, I think that that mold me into the into the man I am. So
Maximiliano: I would say I would say quite the opposite. I think I have an opposite view u there.
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Maximiliano: But maybe maybe u maybe I don't know maybe I change at some point. But I really want at least five children and hopefully three girls.
Patricia Bolaños: And if I don't have three girls, I will adopt three girls. But if I have
Patricia Bolaños: No, you can get a surrogate. You can get surrogates. You don't even have to have a spouse. You can get surrogates. Have the five children all on your own.
Maximiliano: Yeah, I know. Well, I u I think I'm if I'm really honest, I don't u mind that. Like, I will u I will have three daughters, whatever whatever it takes. Like, if if I end up not having a u a wife or something like that, u I will u I will adopt three girls. I don't mind it.
Patricia Bolaños: Right. Right.
Maximiliano: I u I really want children. When I was your age and I was going to graduate school before I met my husband,
Patricia Bolaños: I was focused on on getting finishing my PhD, getting it done. Boom. And then my mother said, "How about you're not going to have a family? Are you not interested in getting married?" I said, "Mom, I'm busy with this. If I don't get married, too bad, so sad. If I want children, I can adopt." And my mother was like, "Really?" Oh, okay. They just left me alone. remember I have no domestic skills whatsoever and I don't want to have them.
Maximiliano: So she said okay we'll let her do what she wants. So make sure she wants to she's able to support herself with her career because if she doesn't want u want a family then you know that's fine. Then I met met my husband and then he wanted four children because we were talking we started dating and then eventually I wasn't even planning on getting married. I got married and had children and I started no children and career no marriage no nothing. We don't know what the future holds for us.
Maximiliano: Yeah. Maybe I'll u I'll despise children in a in No.
Patricia Bolaños: Maybe you'll end up with five wives and no children.
Maximiliano: Oh, no. No, no, no. I u I wouldn't do it. I u I think after u after the second I changing you. I'm cheating.
Maximiliano: I'll just quit on relationships at like ever.
Patricia Bolaños: After the first wife, I would probably quit. this I'll just accept like okay I'm not good at this let's let's just quit okay now I want to compress the whole u episode so to say and u I want to know if you would u have three core principles that guide your thinking through the gender studies u lens of course u what would them be
Patricia Bolaños: principles one is
Maximiliano: Um, you know, I would say I u I don't know how to put it into one specific word to be u
Maximiliano: they don't have to be words. Don't don't like one word. No, it's a principle. I think intent intentions intentionality to be intentional about what you do about what you purchase of the decisions that you make about who the kinds of friends that you keep about be intentional about everything. I think that's one very important u because I think if you have you you embrace for example the the u values of gender studies which is equality for everyone you know for everyone regardless of the race identity sex gender etc
Maximiliano: you know but being intentional about it not only in saying that you this is what you do but actually living it. So living intentionally living intentionally your u your u principles that I think is important. It doesn't only mean that you do it when you talk about ideas about you know philosophical ideas or concept concepts but actually transferring those concept concept abstract ideas into practical everyday life u choices and decisions. So that's what I mean by intentionality. u Um the other one I say I would say the call values is really fairness fairness fairness for you know everyone u and yeah fairness intentionality I I don't think and I think probably u being u a u compassion being compassionate compassionate for the people that don't understand how you feel. So being being willing to listen to people who have different ideas or values than your own cuz it's hard. It's hard. You're listening to someone that say, "Well, you're u you're this, you're that, whatever."
Maximiliano: You know, I disagree, but you know, it's your point of view or whatever. Or that don't hold the same views as you do. I mean, I my father and I are very different politically. He's on the extreme right. I'm on the left. Yeah. I think I'm a moderate left, but to him, I'm extreme left. But
Maximiliano: really, I I would say you you're a very moderate left. I think so too.
Patricia Bolaños: Just u just out of this disco composition. I u I haven't u I haven't asked you any political questions yet, but
Maximiliano: I think so. I think I'm I u I think I'm a little on the left. I It depends on the spectrum. Not not in the u in the United States. I would be left, but in
Maximiliano: Yeah, probably you'll be communist in u in the u the US.
Patricia Bolaños: In Europe, I would be moderate left. Yeah. And the thing is, you know, it's listening to someone with compassion and understanding is very hard. It's very hard for me because my instinct because what my father says sometimes is just blows my mind because I respect him. He's extremely intelligent man. I admire him so much. But just this kind of u kind of thing, this kind of divergence in thinking has made kind of kind of shaken my I don't know if it's my respect but the value I held him or the esteem I to which I held him you know but I tried to view it with compassion I still love him I still care for him and things like that but that I think compassion for u for everyone u for everyone u but particularly what's difficult for me is for those who think very differently than I do or hold very different values.
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Maximiliano: Actually on u on that topic u I know there's a compression but I u I really want to say this u it actually u I've never thought about gender if I'm really honest and and this conversation was very useful and and the and reading the papers that you sent me was incredibly useful. I'll u put them in the u in the show notes as well. Mainly because again it gave me the perspective to be as you say I forgot the word. We u we're going to cut this bit but being what was it? Compassionate. There we go. Being compassionate about somebody. Put u put myself into somebody else's perspective.
Maximiliano: Mhm.
Maximiliano: And then going for that. Well, compassion creates understanding, I would say.
Patricia Bolaños: Yeah. And one of the things that a tool that I often used is a u a cylinder. I put on a cylinder and then I put people in different parts of the room. So, one person can only see a circle.
Maximiliano: M
Patricia Bolaños: and another part of the room, they can see only the outside. It looks almost like a rectangle. And then another person looks at a view where it's really all skewed. So I said these are different lenses. Each one of you is seeing the same object but seeing different things.
Maximiliano: That's u that's actually great. Now u now that I think about it, it's actually so good.
Patricia Bolaños: Yeah. Yeah. because you have to take the culture, the country, the history that the u the historical period to analyze one u one thing. So being a feminine woman in the 19th century is different than being today a feminine woman and it depends on which country,
Maximiliano: right?
Patricia Bolaños: Yeah.
Maximiliano: Um, u now u going for the u for the next u bit of the compression so to say. What are like three rules of thumbs that you utilize
Patricia Bolaños: that I need to u
Maximiliano: that you utilize as in do use?
Patricia Bolaños: Oh rules of thumb that I use. Oh gosh. Pra be practical.
Maximiliano: It's always has to be be practical. Don't u don't look at something that is completely unattainable thinking that you can achieve it when you u you don't have the u the equipment for it.
Patricia Bolaños: Right?
Maximiliano: Okay.
Patricia Bolaños: So, for example, if I u you know when I wanted to be I wanted to be a doctor. So, I used to read medical books and my parents were delighted. Oh my god, she's going to be a doctor blah blah blah. And then in high school, I took a chemistry class which I love but I was horrible horrible. But I was very practical in the sense that without chemistry I was not going to make it in medical school. So I had to change my dreams. Right? There's sometimes people u people I mean I u I teach in university so a lot of students some students unfortunately do not belong in college and could be more u their talents could be better using a trade and people right now trades have been downgraded. People don't look to the trades as something honorable and I find the trades fabulous. He has tremendous skills, tremendous talent that people could really do, u you know, molding something, carpentry, creating from nothing, from wood, u you know, artisans. I mean, we need all those. We're losing those.
Maximiliano: Well, there's a u there's a book called The Eight Rings from Miamoto Mousashi. He talks about the three components of a society. One of them being the tradesman,
Patricia Bolaños: part of a culturally imagine some of the greatest greatest buildings without brick layers, the pyramids, all of those beautiful things in our culture, in history, they cannot have been done with people. I'm kind of attacking myself and I said people like me whose u trait is just thinking. You know what I mean? Writing a paper who is u going to be read but by this u you know people that can count in my hand. You know the books that I have a book that's published and it's like the readership there's no money. My father always tell me so why are you spend so much time writing a book if you're not going to make any money on it? Why don't you write a u not it's not for the
Maximiliano: He doesn't understand it. He doesn't understand it.
Patricia Bolaños: No no no. Well, a trait in Mousashi says actually I u I really love this that he says that a tradesman shouldn't buy u shouldn't create a sword to sell it. Should do it for the fact that he's creating the sword. A u trader shouldn't buy a sword to admire it. He should buy it to sell it. And then well because it's u it's who he is in u in the core of his being. He u he shouldn't try to be something that he's not. And well the scholars I think he u he puts two other categories scholars and then the warriors. I think he u he puts
Maximiliano: right.
Patricia Bolaños: Um and they shouldn't try to like emulate one another or like get try to I think that that's u that's basically the quote. So
Maximiliano: it's true. It's true. It's true. I have u yeah I have no u no trade skills except maybe mowing lawn but with a mower.
Patricia Bolaños: Oh maybe u maybe
Maximiliano: I u I create different patterns because I have a little bit of an artistic flare. But you know I u I u would u I would not dedicate myself my u my u I would not be able to make a living from that.
Maximiliano: Oh I u I got to say I got to say I'm a u I'm a salesman. I'm a u I'm a salesman at heart.
Maximiliano: Anyway,
Maximiliano: u um well, do you have any other rules of thumb that you utilize in your u in your
Patricia Bolaños: I think being practical is extremely important. Being practical and thing u one is be reflect self-reflective. I always have as a practice I go to bed immediately after I go to bed and before I fall asleep I try to think during the day what is it that I've done well and what things could I have done better whether it was
Maximiliano: actually very good.
Patricia Bolaños: you know, whether how I treated people in a restaurant, how did I really waste a day? I really wanted to do this, this, and that. And then, and if I didn't do everything, is it okay? Do I have I give myself the grace or permission to relax? No.
Patricia Bolaños: And the last one is, and this is more of a don't do, it's like be patient because as I told you, I'm extremely impatient. One of my fatal flaws.
Maximiliano: I'm u I'm with you on that. I'm u I'm a mixture of weirdly patient with long-term things.
Patricia Bolaños: Yeah.
Maximiliano: u
Maximiliano: But incredibly impatient as in I want them now and I will do anything to get them now.
Patricia Bolaños: Yeah. But I'm u I'm pretty patient like u that would
Maximiliano: see I'm very patient with some my students in general and with my parents because they're elderly. But otherwise, if you get on, get on board. I always
Maximiliano: I'm like that. Yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: I tell my children and they always tease me. I tell them, "My life is ebbing away." And they laugh.
Maximiliano: Yeah. I'm waiting for you. My life is ebbing away here. And they're like, "Oh my god, you're so dramatic." It's like, "No, watch what? Less time to live. Every minute I have less time to live."
Maximiliano: Anyway, yeah. I think those would be it personally. Yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: I see. u And would you do you always go back to your question or do you have something that you ask yourself when you're disoriented on what to do?
Patricia Bolaños: Um, you know, sometimes I go back to the question and ask myself, was that the right decision? I think that it's not so much as regretting a choice that I've made because I usually because I have a system in which I weigh things out and have a backup plan.
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: But I always think was that a good choice in thinking that could I have made a choice that could have impacted people less and impacted people negatively less. You know,
Maximiliano: sometimes, well, I wish I, you know, I wish I could have done that. I don't regret the choice. I wish I could have been able to do that,
Patricia Bolaños: but sometimes you're not able to do that. And you have to make a choice. So, you have, you make it.
Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah. Well, specifically because we have very little information anyway.
Patricia Bolaños: That's right. And u Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's the only question. Yeah. And why No, a question that I have. It's like why is it that why is it that as we become older and wiser we become more feeble physically because we could use it. Can you imagine if we could put the two together be physically more able right more agile faster more resilient faster with wisdom because we're either missing one or the other. That's really unfair.
Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. This there this actually a phrase saying like we're too early. We're too early. How is it? u courageous.
Patricia Bolaños: u Is it in Spanish or in English?
Maximiliano: u I think is it it's in both but yeah I don't remember it. Oh my god.
Patricia Bolaños: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. H
Maximiliano: it's it's a great quote that too we're too early. Yeah, I don't know.
Patricia Bolaños: Well, anyways, u thank you very much u Patricia for u being here. Thank you very much for u taking your time to being in this podcast. I think we've all learned a lot from from you. Um, I really appreciate you u to having u having been here specifically because the the World Cup is going on right now. So,
Maximiliano: well, thank you. It's been really a pleasure. I really appreciate it and I really appreciate that you're putting these discussions bec discussions out to the public because this these are very important things that you know u more of more more of us should be u should be fighting with tangling with you know
Patricia Bolaños: yeah I think u to tangle with u ideas that that are opposite to yours or that are that you don't ask yourself very frequently that that is exactly what makes you grow.
Maximiliano: Yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: So,
Maximiliano: yeah. Yeah. Well, sometimes I u it makes me grow more impatient.
Patricia Bolaños: I know. I know. Believe me, I know. I know. I've interviewed u fairly weird people as well. So
Maximiliano: Oh, really?
Patricia Bolaños: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we u we'll u take that out from this this this bit. Anyways, u if you want to learn u more about u Patricia Wanos u and u well your u her work u please go to the links below u you will see all her papers u and all her inspirations that she sent me to to get this u to get into this podcast or u is there any other way to contact you? u u no I think that you can do that there. I have my email. I have
Maximiliano: LinkedIn or something maybe.
Patricia Bolaños: Yeah, I do. I have a LinkedIn.
Maximiliano: Yeah, you can contact me through LinkedIn. Yeah.
Patricia Bolaños: And also through the my university u profile.
Maximiliano: Okay, perfect. So u or u go to her LinkedIn and u u her u university profile. u The links will be in the description u below or in the show notes. u Beyond the Horizon podcast is a show about how experts think and what the leaders, founders and CEOs can learn from that u the way they see that u the world. u If you enjoy this conversation and want to support the show, u please please go to a patron u where you for our lowest tier u you can get u an email with the distillation of all the frameworks, horistics and mental models that we spoke in this episode u and all previous ones as well. u So u please u the link is in the description so just click it. It takes you less than a minute. u That's also where you u where we share deeper breakdowns of each episode and where you can join our monthly team meetings u to help us improve our podcast. Yes, we do u that as well. You can you can actually see u the u podcast u being built. So, thank you very much for listening and we'll see you next time. Bye-bye.
Patricia Bolaños: Thank you for having me.
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