Mark Detzler: Full Podcast Transcript

Host: Maximiliano Fabres

Guest: Mark Detzler

Location: Bristol, UK

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1yigBSQNdQ

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/23t8ZRBKWpJTC8o6k69soN?si=f7dffe9f35f94f29

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Maximiliano: Hello guys, welcome back to uh Beyond the Horizon podcast where we uh well where you expand your views on life, um with me uh today uh very important uh not not only important but incredible guest.

Mark: Thank you very much, I'm very I'm very flattered.

Maximiliano: Mark Detsler?

Mark: Detsler, my name is German.

Maximiliano: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark: And there's a whole story behind it.

Maximiliano: Well, uh Mark, um tell us a little bit about yourself, uh who are...

Mark: So, my name is Mark and um I was born in Germany uh in 1963 and uh my parents were living there from 1963 to 1970. Then in 1970, we came to the UK and my father got a job in academia and uh we we lived in Bournemouth uh in the south coast for eight years and then came to Bristol when I was 16 and um it was here that I I met the ladies now my wife and uh I I did my A levels in my university undergraduate work here. And then in 1984, basically a stone's throw from this spot, something happened that was so dramatic that it changed the total direction of my life. And that was in May 1984, May the 16th. And a month later, I got married and our life started heading off in this completely new direction. And we went to Italy from 89 to 99 and lived there in Rome and Milan and Florence. And then we came back in 1999. And since then, I've been working uh uh in in two careers. I've had two careers next to next to each other. One is teaching English to uh young young people from abroad. A lot of the famous boat people. Uh so a lot of boys from Afghanistan and other places like that and I did that until a couple years ago. And at the same time, I was working with churches um to help the churches reach out to people who don't have a Christian background and who don't who who would not regard themselves as being Christian. And as part of that in in two in uh 2010, we um started meeting with a small group of people in a pub on King Street here in this in the city center. And uh that group started then went to an office space and then we settled in what was now Broadley Baptist Church. What was Broadway Baptist Church, but we weren't we weren't Broadly Baptist Church. We were a group of people meeting upstairs. And so um and after through co and through a variety of situations, we became uh Broadway Baptist Church and we we got we um we they they invited us to take over the building and to do the things we're doing now. And so um I don't if you say to me where are you from? I don't really know because...

Maximiliano: It's a difficult answer.

Mark: Yeah. My passport says America. Uh my birth certificate says Germany. My marriage certificate says UK, but my heart says Italy. My heart says Italy because uh that was a that was a very formative time for us. And um we our experiences of living in Italy were were dramatic in in changing how we viewed the world and how we responded to the world.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Mark: And three children all married. And the oldest is uh 36 and the youngest is 31.

Maximiliano: Fair enough. Fair enough. You you seem very like happy with your uh life currently.

Mark: Um yeah, happiness is a funny thing, isn't it? Because happiness can kind of come and go. Um and I think that happiness is is is is at least in my mind associated with an emotional state. Um what I have a famous author called CS Lewis um became a Christian in the 1930s and he said he was dragged into Christianity screaming and struggling, you know, the most reluctant convert the world has ever seen because he was a he was an intellectual and he couldn't he struggled with the person of Jesus and yet he wrote a book about it and he said I was surprised by joy and joy is um an experience similar to happiness, but it is a a form of um contentment, well-being, confidence, uh peace of heart and mind in situ regardless of the situation you're in in bad times and in good times to have this constant uh sense of um well-being that is um fed by a a source which is uh uh way beyond us and a source which is um uh intelligible to people who have not entered in. So if you're saying are you happy? Well, depends how I feel. But if you're saying are you are you joyful? I I would say yeah I feel you know pretty joyful.

Maximiliano: Feel pretty joyful. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. Uh so uh Mark just a really quick would you like to light uh our particular candle?

Mark: Yeah. Now, my problem is I haven't been a smoker for a number of years, so I'm going to have to work on this one here. Oh, I got it. There we go.

Maximiliano: Is this an advent candle?

Mark: Um, no. It's It's not.

Maximiliano: What does it signify?

Mark: Sorry.

Maximiliano: What does it signify?

Mark: Uh, it's a sense of unity. Um, I was a scout uh for about 15 years.

Maximiliano: Wow.

Mark: Uh, maybe a bit more, but I don't know. Uh, but about 15 years. 14 15 years and the fire is a key element uh signifies a point of union and when nature...

Maximiliano: It's like like steps aside and lets the unity of humanity.

Mark: Wow. Cool.

Maximiliano: For me, fire is always about purification, cleansing.

Mark: Oh my god. Uh I actually uh saw a verse um of the Bible that says uh God purifies us uh just as it does with silver. Just just refine silver refinement.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Refinement silver. And then when I when I saw a video how the how the refinement of silver actually goes...

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: I was amazed by that by that phrase mainly because you have to put the silver in the middle of the fire. Not not...

Mark: Not in the H, right?

Maximiliano: But right in the middle and you purify until you see yourself.

Mark: Is it in a bowl or like a crucible or something?

Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark: Yeah. It's um the Bible actually calls says that our God is a refining fire, a consuming fire. Our God is a consuming fire.

Maximiliano: Consuming.

Mark: It describes God in those terms. And um of course with the sacrificial system of the Old Testament, fire had a big part to play there, too, because they'd be consuming the animals or whatever with with fire.

Maximiliano: Well, uh I'm actually starting to read the Old Testament. I'm still in Genesis. Don't...

Mark: Is it is a thick book to go. You got to remember that the Old Testament is is part narrative, part poetry, part wisdom, but it's also a legal document. So, it's it's...

Maximiliano: It's a little bit comp. Yeah. It's...

Mark: You hit Numbers, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy. You you got to you got to take that like a chapter a day just to...

Maximiliano: Just like you would Yeah. Because it it is um we we have we we have this problem at church where we say to people let's read the Bible in the year because Genesis is fine because it's all narrative.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Genesis. All right.

Maximiliano: Yeah. But I've seen bits of...

Mark: Yeah. Then you get into Leviticus and you get into all those other things and people then start to panic a little bit. You have to say, well, just take a just read a chapter from the New Testament and just kind of trade it off. Yeah. Let's keep going. Keep going.

Maximiliano: So, uh you are a pastor.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Let's um how how has it been? Um can you tell us a little bit more about your testimony?

Mark: Right. Well, a pastor is is is different to a priest. So that's an important principle. A priest is a mediator between God and man. If you think about it, uh at least in my experience of of Catholicism, um that people would pray not necessarily to to God or even to Jesus, but they would pray to other mediators who would then they would hope take them the message...

Maximiliano: could present their case to God.

Mark: Uh whereas a pastor, the word is from a shepherd. What's the Spanish word for shepherd?

Maximiliano: Um uh pastor.

Mark: There you go. In Italian, it's pastor.

Maximiliano: Yeah, I know. I know.

Mark: It goes. It goes. I know. So yeah, my mother took it over.

Maximiliano: I know. But you But we when when someone snatches you like that into catch you off guard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark: Um so yeah, pas pastor is a pastor is a shepherd and the idea is that we what they what they call the um the that we are the priesthood of all believers. So when people uh come into a relationship with Jesus, they become priests themselves and a nation of priests. And so a pastor's role is not to be intermediating, mediating between people and God, but to um bless, encourage, guide, lead, teach uh those who themselves are on their own entering a business into the presence of God.

Maximiliano: Oh that that description I I really love. It's a it's a very interesting description because well I never I never asked it so before. So, so the the the idea of priest is a is a current one and it works, but it's not a special pe group of people that are chosen by other people. A priest is somebody who's chosen by God to to to serve him and to lay down their life as a sacrifice to him day in day out. Well, I I the person who introduced me to Christianity again, let's call it um said to me um that somebody from a priest, he's Christian, so a priest uh said uh that we should pray once a day all day long.

Mark: Yeah, that Yeah, that is good. That that prayer prayer is um is something that I I I enjoy first thing in the morning. So I I tend to when I wake up start start praying then, but pray is certainly something we should be doing all day long.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: Because it's just a conversation isn't it with God.

Maximiliano: I I have tried to to do that because he well he's opposite from that branch. It's a Spanish branch of Christianity.

Mark: Uh-huh.

Maximiliano: Um, which also say that uh an hour worked is an hour prayed.

Mark: Mhm.

Maximiliano: Mainly because if you give it to God, then...

Mark: It is technically a...

Maximiliano: offering.

Mark: It's an offering. Yeah. So, I've been trying to go through that route and it's very interesting.

Maximiliano: Sure. Um I found that this one day prayer...

Mark: The psalms are helpful because in the psalms God is speaking to the psalms basically cover every single emotion and every single situation that a person could ever go through and in the psalms is speaking and what I often find helpful is to just to look at one of the verses in the psalms and then um respond back to him. So for instance, Psalm 139 says, "All of the days ordained for me were written in your book before even one of them came to be."

Maximiliano: Sorry, could you say that again?

Mark: All of the days ordained for me were written in your book before even one of them came to be. But what that means is that God planned...

Maximiliano: I was about to ask for the meaning.

Mark: God ordained God planned every day of my life. And so what I sometimes do is I'll say that verse in my head and then I'll I'll talk to I I'll pray and I'll say Lord okay so you've planned out this day and what I want to ask you to do is to inhabit this day and what I want to ask you to do is to guide me and give me the right words to say and give me the right attitude to have with people. Help me to to be uh to to see your Holy Spirit at work in this. And so what I would do is I I'll try to get a verse and then interact. So I'll assume well God has spoken now. He said this so now I'm going to respond.

Maximiliano: Oh,

Mark: and then I'm going to listen say well so what has he got to say now?

Maximiliano: Phil, that's the way I read at least. Um so uh a book that I reread constantly is meditations by Marcus. Yeah.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: And every time I I like I read a verse...

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: I try to like...

Mark: engage with it.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: Engage with it as if that verse would have a personality.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: And then you would go...

Mark: That that is it's an interesting that...

Maximiliano: very difficult to do as well.

Mark: Yeah. But it's interesting you use the word personality because what part another know the Bible says that the word of God is living and active sharper than a double-edged sword divides soul and spirit joints and marrow and it judges the thoughts and the attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight but everything's uncovered and laid there before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. And he says the the Bible is like a sword and it goes deep into who you are and it divides um your emotions, it divides your motivations, it divides um your your thoughts and it reveals light on all of those stages. If you think about it, people function on like a triangle, three levels. Okay. So the first level is um what we say and what we do is conscious. People can observe it. People can can describe it. It it interacts socially with other people. That's the most public level that we operate on. The next level is our thoughts and our emotions. No, the next level is our ideology, our philosophy, the way we see the world. Are you a socialist? Are you a capitalist? Are you are you Muslim? Are you Christian? And it's that second level is the way we interpret the world. But then the third level is the what they call the world of the spirits. And in the world of the spirits, I don't even know who I am. I don't even understand what's going on. World of the spirits is manifesting itself when we when we get involved in addictions. The world of the spirits is is is playing with us all night long in our dreams. The world of the spirits is drawing on negative experiences a child, positive experience as a child and are influencing today because of those situations. And what the Bible does is that the Bible divides just kind of comes down and it reveals what's going on in our words and our actions. It reveals what's going on in our thoughts and our ideology, but it reveals what's going on in the world of the spirits, who we are in the basic fundamental place for that.

Maximiliano: Okay, it's that is a very interesting concept. I've never thought about it. Um, I would say that the closest I I could have gotten maybe is uh niche's ideology of uh consciousness.

Mark: Uhhuh.

Maximiliano: So you got uh fully conscious then subconscious...

Mark: And then...

Maximiliano: yeah the unconscious.

Mark: Yeah. Also Freud Freud has the same similar thing.

Maximiliano: Yeah. I think...

Mark: the the the ego the id the ego and the super ego is the kind of that...

Maximiliano: well teacher and...

Mark: So yeah it's it's a very interesting way of looking at the world.

Maximiliano: So so so my point is that when you're reading the Bible and you're praying...

Mark: So so...

Maximiliano: you are operating with absolute truth which is illuminating and interacting with who we are on all of those levels. So when I'm praying, I'm thinking about my behaviors and God's spirit is illuminating my behavior. When I'm praying, I'm thinking about my attitudes and the way that I respond to people and and the and the maybe the bigotry I might have or the um or the anger that I might manifest or the love that I have for people. And then also it's also going deep deep down and it's saying who are you in the very fundamental base of who of life who are you really what's really motivating you and guiding you and it's revealing to me who I am and it's is saying to me you don't have to be this way you don't have to be a slave of what happened in the past you don't have to be um uh you don't have to distraught. You don't have to be afraid because I'm here too and he is at the very basis of our being.

Maximiliano: This reminds me uh to I don't know what uh to to what Greeks uh used to say about characterist.

Mark: Uhhuh.

Maximiliano: So the in is inner bit of of yourself that it's not even subconscious or whatever...

Mark: That actually decides what is going to happen with you to you and so on.

Maximiliano: I think tying it back to addiction and so on because you did mention it.

Mark: Yeah. So it say psyche isn't it? I mean the Greek idea of psyche I don't know was picked up on by Freud as well. I don't I don't know to what extent it moves in that area but I think it it does go some way to help us understand that area.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah. The thing is I'm trying to um so for the viewers because uh I know many many of the viewers currently.

Mark: Hi Alex.

Maximiliano: uh many of them don't understand Christianity but do you understand this other concepts right surrounding the the idea? So what I'm trying to do is also to myself to to know if I'm actually correct or not is try to maybe put like a synonym so...

Mark: Right.

Maximiliano: so Christianity as a word I don't think is is ideal in this conversation.

Mark: Okay.

Maximiliano: because Christianity is a term for a religion.

Mark: Okay.

Maximiliano: in the same way that Islam is a term for a religion.

Mark: Because you did say that in in the Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Maximiliano: So, Christianity...

Mark: triangle concept.

Maximiliano: Yeah. So, so Christianity and Islam, Judaism is slightly different because Judaism is linked to being a Jewish person. But but certainly Islam and Islam and Christianity have religious structures. So, they have places of worship, they have leaders, they have holy books, they have um uh practices, they've got a a world view. Both Christianity and Islam have a the worldview that you want to take over. Basically, it is what it is.

Mark: You said it.

Maximiliano: I said it. But God God willing, we don't want to take over with with arms. We want to take over by winning hearts and minds. But um I read a quote heard a quote just off the other side. I heard a quote the other day. Someone said, "What's the best way to change the world? Is it through revolution or is it through slow change?" And the the the the the philosopher said neither. The best way to to ch to change people is by offer offering them a vision of glory, a vision, a new vision, a new way of looking at the world. Anyway, that takes us back. So I would I would not I would not want to introduce necessarily the word Christian here because when you use the word Christian, then many people might think, okay, oh, I see religion. I went to I went to mass. I went to church as a kid. Yeah. And and they have this thing which I find is completely different in in in the Baptist church that well we go to...

Mark: Hopefully hopefully.

Maximiliano: it's is completely different because it's more about understanding the Bible. It's nothing about like controlling people's lives.

Mark: It's more than controlling people's lives. Um that comes and goes. I would say that has to do with group settings and so on. I feel it's a little bit different.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Mark: Um but it has to do more uh with not having rituals.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: Which I find very interesting because I never went to a church without particular rituals.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: We do the um the the the communion the mass.

Maximiliano: communion. Yeah.

Mark: Uh once a month.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: And that's it. And and it's a meal. It's kind of we're having a meal together.

Maximiliano: It's I mean actually not not not many not not everybody at our church even likes to have the Lord's Lord's Prayer every week. Not not everybody thinks that that's necessary or necessarily desirable.

Mark: Okay.

Maximiliano: So that so that's about the only ritual we really have is to have the Lord.

Mark: Yeah. That's Yeah. Yeah. Now that I think about it...

Maximiliano: and it just I like it because it gets everybody a chance to pray. M...

Mark: so rather than the word Christian I would want to propose the idea of the way when Jesus disciples when Jesus returned to heaven and he said go into all the world and preach the gospel uh the people that he sent out his disciples were called the followers of followers of the way and so and and that I think is a is a more precise notion for what we want to talk about here.

Maximiliano: Okay. Okay. I'm not particularly interested in talking about religious structures.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: But following the followers of the way, the the way is not is is a it's a form of disciplehip. It's a form of of way of living. But it's more than that because Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to the father except through me." And so a follower of the way is somebody who is walking with Jesus and he's walking close to Jesus and he's following Jesus. He's a disciple of Jesus.

Mark: Okay.

Maximiliano: So okay take take me through or describe me this uh so-called way.

Mark: Okay. So...

Maximiliano: were you describable?

Mark: So someone who is not a follower of the way is somebody who is not responding to Jesus as Lord and is not uh loving him and is not knowing him or seeking him. The the Bible actually says that those people are spiritually dead that okay let's go back to the Garden of Eden.

Maximiliano: Let's go back. Um...

Mark: I've read that I've read that...

Maximiliano: you read that one. So, so, so, so the the philos the understanding in in Judaism and Christianity is that people are body, soul and spirit.

Mark: Mhm.

Maximiliano: And the body, okay, we get that the soul is, you know, you like tea rather than coffee. Uh, this is your personality. These are the soul is who you are. What they call Italianma, the anima of a person. what animates you. The the spirit is the part of you that connects to God. And so when Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden, they underwent a form of death. And that death eventually would play out in a physical death.

Mark: Was a spiritual was a spiritual death.

Maximiliano: Spiritual death. And the spiritual death is is is a um is an alienation from God. It is a separation from God. It is a place where we are antagonistic to God and we do not want him to to to to guide us and lead us and direct us and be our father. We we we we can't hear him speak. We we can't hear his voice. And what happens in when you're following the way is that you get to a place where you understand because God has shown you that you are spiritually dead. And you understand that when Jesus died on the cross, it wasn't just a death and a resurrection to teach the world something beautiful. It wasn't just a death and a resurrection uh as a fairy story. It wasn't just the death and resurrection as a as a as a spiritual um aim and objective for people to follow. The the death and resurrection of Jesus was God sacrificing his son and putting on his son the punishment that we deserve for our rejection of God. And this is called substitutionary the substitutionary atonement. We are Jesus became our substitute and he bore the wrath of God. He bore God's condemnation in our place. And so now when he rose from the dead, we rise from our spiritual death and we are now united to him and he we are now following the way. And as followers of the way, we do so with the same authority he has. So for instance, you have a father and a mother and you have a home I'm sure and um you there's a place where you belong and you're the son in that situation. One day you'll be the father, God willing, and you have you'll have your own children around you. Um and I can come to your house as a visitor and I'm sure everybody will be very nice to me. But if I was trying to say say run and said to your dad, "Hey dad, hey dad, um am I in your will, can I live here now forever?" They they might say to me, you know, Mark, as nice as you are, uh that's not going to work for us because we already have a family. But when you become a follower of the way, you join God's family and you are now at home there and you are now part of that family because you're a follower of the way. And um the Romans chapter 8 says, "Therefore, there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." And so, having made that choice, there's no condemnation left. In fact, it's impossible for God to see your sins and failures. He can't see them because they're covered by the blood of Jesus. Is impossible for him to look on you with anything other than love. Now, in 1984, I I walked down that street right there and I walked to the Ashton Gate Stadium and in the Ashton Gate Stadium, there was a service going on and there was a preacher called Billy Graham. And Billy Graham had preached in 180 countries and he had been friends with Nixon, Queen Elizabeth II. She loved him.

Maximiliano: Can I can I...

Mark: She loved him.

Maximiliano: for the viewers who don't know uh Billy Graham, who is he?

Mark: So Billy Graham was a preacher born in about 1920 and he was from Charlotte, North Carolina. And he had a a an incredible gift of communication and preaching. And when he preached u people would uh experience this spiritual reanimation and they would um they would uh respond to Jesus through his preaching.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Mark: And he uh preached in in Russia when Russia was still communist. He preached in 180 countries. He was friends with Nixon, friends with um about eight or nine presidents. Obama knew him. Trump knew him. He was present. He friends and he was if you watch the um the crown. There's an episode on the crown. I don't know which which one. Don't know which one, but she meets Billy Graham. The queen meets Billy Graham.

Maximiliano: All right.

Mark: And she was transformed by his by his preaching. In 1956, he came to Haring Gay Stadium and he preached every night for like six weeks and the queen would watch him on TV and he changed her view of what it meant to be a Christian and she was the head of the Church of England. And so he was a I I'd seen him preach before in 1975, but then in 1984 I was living here with my wife with well we weren't living together because we're we were one one month away from our marriage. But so then but and I walked down there and I went to the hear Billy Graham and as I was sitting there with my friends from university I thought I've got to give my life to Jesus. And so at the end of every time he preached he would say if you want to give your life to Jesus just come forward. And so I got up out of my seat and with along with thousands others I went to down to the the turf and someone prayed with me and I gave my life to Jesus and I went home that night and I said I prayed again. And I said, "Lord, you're now the boss. You're in charge of my life. I'm now your follower. I will follow wherever you lead me." And I became a follower of the way. I became somebody who was walking with Jesus at that point. And and so at that point, I was at university. I finished my degree at UI, was now UI with Christoph Technic. And then I we did two years theology. And then after my theology degree, I was thinking about becoming a minister. And I was, you know, but I I wasn't feeling it. I was thinking about it, but I wasn't feeling it because, you know, if you're if you're going to be a minister, you got to love people. You got to really love.

Maximiliano: You got to Yeah.

Mark: You got to You got to like people. You got to love people. And I wasn't sure how much I really love people. And so I thought, I'll be a preacher, but I won't be a minister. So I...

Maximiliano: What's it What's the diff difference?

Mark: Well, a preacher, a minister is a preacher, but a preacher can be not not a minister. So, a preacher in broadme, I would go to broad me and I would preach.

Maximiliano: Mhm.

Mark: And I would have a little paint board and not paint. And I I I met a guy called Corki and he had been in Africa and he had more energy than any person I've ever seen. I went to...

Maximiliano: I know the type. I know you type. Yeah.

Mark: Unbelievable charisma.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: His parents were super rich. She'd never been to school. They they educated him privately. When he was 15, they taught him to fly a plane. When he was like 17, he was reading the news at the BBC because he had a really really posh accent. He unbelievable guy. He's still alive. He lived in here in Bristol. And he came to our church and he says, "You know what? I've been in Africa and I've seen people and he was just like talk for 20 minutes." And I thought, "Okay, you're the guy I need to talk to. You're the guy I need to talk to." and I went and saw him.

Maximiliano: I love when that clicks when you are in a conversation with someone. It's like, okay, yes, you will show me the way of whatever I'm trying to...

Mark: Definitely. And he did. I went and saw him and we spoke for about an hour and he said, "Mark, you're nice, but you're very boring." But, you know, even boring people like you can do something for Jesus. And I thought, okay,

Maximiliano: He was a kid.

Mark: he was a kid. Straight. Oh, he's straight guy. Straight forward. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no kidding around.

Maximiliano: Fair enough.

Mark: So, he had um he had an EA Jag in his garage, but we didn't go in that. We went He had an old Volvo and my wife and I and a couple other girls and Corki drove to Italy and he took us through Mlan Tunnel into Austa, which is the northern part of Italy. and we went to Milan and then down to Florence and we experienced Italy and my wife and I as we drove into Italy we we just fell in love and we thought we need to be here. We need to be here. So two years later um we moved to to Italy and then uh we moved to Florence for a year and we learned Italian and then we lived two years in Milan and in Milan I was a street preacher and then um I went...

Maximiliano: street preacher. Yeah, I would preach on the street.

Mark: That's crazy.

Maximiliano: It was great. It was great. We I used a board, a paint board, and I would paint and speak and you know, you're not shouting at people. You're just engaging with them now. Like I talk with you.

Mark: I The thing is they did a similar job. So...

Maximiliano: Oh, really?

Mark: Well, not not in preaching, but I I used to do sales and I remember just uh it's so it's invigorating. It's it's every day every day is completely different. every day is like it's pregnant, you know, it's pregnant day and a baby gets born and it's like, you know what I mean? Something happens. And so I was preaching.

Maximiliano: Oh, I love that. Love,

Mark: it was great. It was great. And then I met an Italian uh leader, church leader called Gaitano, and he um he he said, "You need to come work for me." So then I started traveling around Italy and lining up meetings for him. I was what they call in a bag man. I was pora bora.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah. No, I was just Batman.

Mark: Oh, but one night, but I...

Maximiliano: this with your wife living where?

Mark: Uh in in Rome.

Maximiliano: Okay. Okay. Okay.

Mark: So, my wife, our two sons and daughter, we were living in Rome.

Maximiliano: Oh my god. You already have...

Mark: So, yeah. So, so I already have three kids. Yeah. Oh my I don't know how my wife let me. I was I was gone 40% of the time. It was It was It was really It It was hard for her.

Maximiliano: I'm sure. I'm sure. How old were your children?

Mark: Let's think. Uh my oldest would have been between three and he was he went being four to seven and my second went from being one to three and then my daughter went from being like under one. So yeah, they were like toddlers. My wife was my I have a wonderful wife. She's she was a real trooper.

Maximiliano: Yeah, I did. I hope you you...

Mark: Yeah, she's a trooper. Um, but here's the thing. Even though I knew I was a follower of the way, even though I knew that I was I belonged to Jesus and my job was to serve him, I still had an issue that needed resolving. And it was this. I in my mind had equated God with somebody who is a loving father but very strict and very kind of difficult to please. So I don't know if you ever went to went to school and brought home a report from school at the end of the year. I don't know what your reports were like. I suspect your reports were he's running around too much and he's you know too kind of crazy. But...

Maximiliano: I was uh how do you call it when you're about to be kicked out?

Mark: Expelled.

Maximiliano: Yeah. But is...

Mark: about to be expelled.

Maximiliano: About to be expelled. Yeah. How is conditional? There we go.

Mark: You You call it conditional in in So you do basically one more thing and you're out.

Maximiliano: And you're only allowed to have...

Mark: one semester.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Uh conditional and then the next one has to be not conditional.

Mark: Right. So if you...

Maximiliano: every year I was conditional not conditional.

Mark: I can imagine you being like that. Well I was I was I was slightly different is that I I was I was uber average. I just bar did the bare amount of work. I couldn't see the point of it. So just did the bare amount of work. I wasn't I was I was not an academic.

Maximiliano: I got one sibling that was like that. Well,

Mark: so so whenever I at the end of the year, I would always get a report card and the report card says something like Mark could do better or Mark is a happy golucky boy. And when I I felt like that's the way it was with God, that God was looking on me and that he was shaking his head saying, "I love you, Mark, but you really are you're a mess. You could do you could do better." And and in that's a very tough feeling to have.

Maximiliano: I had I felt that way about God for 10 years. follow.

Mark: I I've been I've been I've been a follower of the way for 10 years and I was feeling that...

Maximiliano: you was still that that was still at the back of your head...

Mark: right there every day pressing me down and I went to a conference and one of the speakers there said what you need to do is read the prayers of Paul in the New Testament. Apostle Paul writes letters and in the beginning of every letter almost every letter he writes a prayer and he says read the prayers of Paul because the prayers of Paul are pray what Paul is praying he says for instance in he in Ephesians 3 he says uh for this reason I kneel before the father from whom is his whole family in heaven and earth the same and I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power in through his spirit in in your being so you may know Christ who dwells in your heart through faith and that you be rooted and established in love may have power together with all the saints to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ. And when Paul writes that in the Bible, he's saying to the followers of the way, I want you to know how loved you are by God. How absolutely loved you are. And I I looked at that and I thought, I don't feel that. I don't feel that. And for two years I read those prayers and I said, "Lord, if this is true, help me to feel that." Well, I went down to Sicily to a city called Katana and I was um organizing a seminar for Gatano. I was working for Gatano and um some guys were there and at the end of the service they were laying hands on people and this wasn't something I felt very comfortable with.

Maximiliano: What's Well, they they'll put their hands on your head and pray for you.

Mark: Okay. Yeah, I know. I know. Yeah. Yeah.

Maximiliano: And I didn't feel terribly comfortable with that.

Mark: No, I don't like that.

Maximiliano: No, I I wasn't I was n't feeling it, but but but someone said to me, you know, Mark, I can see that you're struggling with the fatherhood of God. And so, I let them put their hands on me and pray for me in that moment. And this is January 1994. So, what's that? 30 years ago. It feels like last night. In that moment, they laid their hands on my head. They prayed for me. And I suddenly felt accepted and loved by God unconditionally. Unconditionally. And I started to cry. And I cried six hours. I could not stop crying.

Maximiliano: Not tears of sadness, but tears of happiness.

Mark: Just And that's the relief and the relief. I don't have to I don't have to do anything.

Maximiliano: It's just...

Mark: the amount of time that you went through with...

Maximiliano: struggling with it.

Mark: Yeah. Not only with with God but also with your family as well.

Maximiliano: Yeah. And and you know I just I kind of was an angry guy. I felt like I was pretty angry guy before this and I suddenly felt I don't believe it. He just loves me and he's delighted to see me. And when I when I drop the rule, when I drop the ball and I do things wrong, he he sees that the way a father would see his child who's in hospital. If your if your father and your child is in hospital with a disease, you go to the hospital, you're not angry at the child. You're weeping with love for them and you just wish they get better. And that's the way God sees he says when he when you fail, he doesn't see you as an enemy. He sees it as someone that he just loves and he wants you to experience more. And that experience 30 years ago had such an impact on my life that I left the job I was doing and I said right I need to become a pastor because now that I've understood the love of God for me then that's the kind of love I want to be able to show other people and that's the way I want to respond to other people and I want to share that love with other people. At that point I became a pastor.

Maximiliano: That is a beautiful story.

Mark: It was amazing. It was an amazing experience.

Maximiliano: I'm I'm sure it was.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: And this this is what we try to do at Broadway. We try to help help people to become followers of the way and then to experience what it means to just be accepted by God and just loved by him and taken care of by him. And we see people like your good self your age, you know, arriving and some of them are followers of the way, some of them have questions. They're not really sure. But over the years, we just see them grow and grow and grow and develop and understand that they're just loved by God. And before you know it, they're often going away again. You know, they're doing different things, you know?

Maximiliano: Yeah. Um, we we're sending my own son and daughter-in-law and my grandson and another family and another lady to another church in January. We're saying they need help. It's actually here in Victoria Park. It's right close. And we're saying those guys are our friends. They need help. You guys go. And it's going to break my heart to send my grandson away because I love my grandson.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Every Sunday I'm there with my grandson.

Mark: Every Sunday I'm there with my grandson. And uh...

Maximiliano: yeah yeah yeah every time I wanted to ask you a question you're...

Mark: pay my rent go away. Yeah. So so yeah but but it's the right thing to do because they're going to go less than there. And so we're in the business at Broadme of uh walking with people along the way until they reach a place where they are able to walk with somebody else and they're able to reproduce in their own life that experience that we are enjoying.

Maximiliano: That is a very powerful story.

Mark: It was a wonderful experience. It's like I was saying 30 years ago was just like like it was last night. I woke up this morning still enjoying it which is kind of the source of joy.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah. This leads me to to the next question then which is how do you let's call it properly search for God...

Mark: right? Yeah.

Maximiliano: Cuz that that look I'm I've been searching for God for about two years now.

Mark: About two years.

Maximiliano: Tell me about that journey. What does it what does it involve?

Mark: Oh my god. It It started very weirdly. I I I said uh to a friend out loud if I get a an A an A+ basic if I get a first whatever in this exam that I thought I was going to absolutely fail it. It was accounting. It was like the last test. It was awful. I got first. Okay. So basically I said if I do uh pass that test...

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: then um I'll go three times to church.

Maximiliano: I said it to him.

Mark: Where was this? Back in back in Chile.

Maximiliano: No, back in well in Germany.

Mark: Germany.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was only two years ago. So uh oh god I remember that day. So, and after the exam, my friend asked me, "So, what what did you get?" I told him said, "Okay, then come come on Sunday." And then, "Yeah, well," I said, "Okay, all right. I'll I'll join." He brought me to this um Catholic uh ledian American church. Well, other friends um went there and like played guitar and so on.

Mark: It was in Spanish.

Maximiliano: It was in Spanish. And then well after three terms that I went there um I was like all right I actually quite like it. It's it's quite nice to learn about the Bible and so on.

Mark: Then he said to me okay have you ever thought about praying?

Maximiliano: I was like no how do you pray? Just say something and then so so it was like this very soft approach. It was like very step by step very light. It was...

Mark: gentle.

Maximiliano: Very very much like seeing a feather go to the ground.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: It's just uh very gentle way for sure.

Mark: Wow.

Maximiliano: Uh and he said, "Okay." Yeah. After I start praying, pray to someone and then uh say uh now God instead of someone.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: And now make it a conversation. So, it it was like this step by-step process and then Oh, start reading the Bible.

Mark: Cool.

Maximiliano: Um, have you had...

Mark: I don't know a Bible study.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: Have you ever confessed? I still haven't confessed. Sorry for that, Thomas.

Maximiliano: Really love you. Yeah. Uh, so now now I'm in the confession bit where where he says to me that I should confess.

Mark: What did he mean by confess? And what do you mean by it? Uh, confession. Uh, yeah.

Maximiliano: Yeah. But I know it has a formal manifestation. Does it have an informal manifestation for you?

Mark: Informal.

Maximiliano: Well, what? So, so for instance, in a Catholic church, you have a lot of a little cubicle. You go...

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: And then the priest is on the other side.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: You're confessing.

Mark: Mhm.

Maximiliano: Is Is that Is that what you're talking about when confessing or...

Mark: Yes. Okay.

Maximiliano: I'm talking about that. So, what what why what is there another one?

Mark: Yeah, because well confession is is a big part of the journey of the of the disciple. So so confession um the Bible says confess your sins to each other but it also says just confess your sins to to God. And so um I I don't I don't I don't want to interrupt your stream if you're...

Maximiliano: No, no, go on.

Mark: So if if you are if you're not a follower of the way and and you sin, lying, cheating, stealing, whatever it is, lust, um adultery, whatever it is, then what that's doing is it is compounding your separation from God. It's becoming part of the barrier that keeps you from God, from Jesus. If you are a follower of the way, you don't suddenly become perfect. You you're still prone to temptation. You're still struggling with what they call the old nature. You're still struggling with who you used to be. And you can you can fall into sin. That sin does not separate you from God because God has accepted you regardless of your sinful state. But what it does is it destroys your enjoyment of God. and it stops you. It It takes your joy away.

Maximiliano: That's that's something that I've that I've seen that I've left. I would say uh...

Mark: It robs you of your joy.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: And so the reason why we we we should say I don't want to sin because I want to glorify God. And that'd be great. But but in practice, what we say is I don't want to sin because I'm I'm I love joy so much. I'm enjoying being joyful. I I don't want to lose this joy through something which is ultimately toxic and and addictive.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: Destructive.

Maximiliano: Okay. Fair enough.

Mark: So the confession is part of what we do too, but but not in a cubicle with a with a priest because we we don't recognize that a priest is somehow he he he's not an intermediary for us. He we're already in the presence of Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Maximiliano: Well, basically um um he says to to go to Northern Wales, confess somewhere there and then go back...

Mark: if needed.

Maximiliano: Yeah. No, he basically No, because I said, "No, I really would not like to confess. Not right now."

Mark: And he's like, "Let me know if if it really bothers you that much, just go to Northern Ireland, confess somewhere in Norway. It doesn't matter. Just do it."

Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: great friend of mine though. He know he he knows me a lot.

Mark: Confession is a is a is is a wonderful liberation.

Maximiliano: Um he does say that all the time.

Mark: The liberation...

Maximiliano: every time. Yeah.

Mark: set you free from all that stuff you've been holding on to.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm I'm I'm still stuck with prayer. Uh...

Mark: so just to come back to your question about how how can we how can we search for God? You you I'm interviewing you now, but so You had this you started praying. You you visited the church. You started praying and you're now confessing.

Maximiliano: I'm I'm not confessing you.

Mark: Not confessing yet.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah.

Mark: Um Jeremiah 29, the prophet Jeremiah wrote to the Jewish people after they had been taken from Jerusalem to Babylon in 586 AD. And Jeremiah had been saying to them for years, don't resist the king of Babylon. He's going to come and destroy you. Just when he comes, open the door and and go with him because God's sending you off this land because you've rejected God. And so Jeremiah, it's uh he's there warning people and eventually that the Babylonians come. The city resists them. They destroy the city. They destroy the temple. They destroy the walls and they take all the people of Babylon. And then Jeremiah writes the people in Babylon and he says, 'Listen, you're going to be here 70 years, so just settle down. And he says this, 'I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I'll be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and the places where I've driven you, declares the Lord. And I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile. He says, "If you seek for me with all your heart, you will find me because I'm eager to I'm eager for you to find me." And so seeking for God is is really important. And and if we make that the number one desire of our heart that we will be found by God and he will find us and we will find him.  

Maximiliano: You know this this is the the the thing um I feel my attempts have been you know when you like look back at uh a skill that you were developing and you say like oh my god what what was I trying yeah...

Mark: It wasn't even in the right direction.

Maximiliano: I feel that is my journey currently I feel like in a few years maybe months. So, who knows? I'm going to look back and I'm going to say, "Oh my god, I was doing all this dumb stuff that I could have I could just It was literally this, you know, it was right there. It was just looking up."

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Whatever it was,

Mark: but it's I don't know. It feels like like I'm still searching in the dark.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah.

Mark: Well, I don't know the how how confident are you in being honest with somebody about your challenges and your and your searching and and speaking with somebody on a one-to-one basis and saying this is this is how comfortable are you? Okay. Remember the three parts the the...

Maximiliano: words and actions.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Philosophical beliefs.

Mark: Some some people we meet them, all you ever see is words and actions. You can talk to them for two hours and not know where they are politically, not know what they think, not know what they what they desire, and you just they just don't reveal it. Say hello to the British.

Maximiliano: literally. Whereas he goes something like Italy.

Mark: Yeah, you get all that too. But...

Maximiliano: you you know.

Mark: If a Roman is annoyed at you, you will know. There's just no two ways around it that and so they reveal that. But it's actually very difficult to find someone you trust enough to say, look, these are the world of the spirits. This is what's happening in the world of the spirits. because that's a pretty intimate that's a pretty intimate conversation and you've got to trust that the people won't judge you and you got to trust that the people are going to be walking with you.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Mark: And that they will that they love you and that what how they feel about you doesn't change on the basis of what you tell them.

Maximiliano: Yeah. and and they don't they don't reject you. And all of those responses are what something like an alpha course and uh would would would elicit...

Mark: what...

Maximiliano: alpha course.

Mark: Was that? So, in in sorry, I don't I don't know. January the 15th, we're we're running a six-eek course called Alpha, and it's how to and it's it's the most um it's it's it's a course that is practiced all over the world, Catholic and Protestant.

Maximiliano: All right.

Mark: Um it's uh and it's it starts with is there a God? and you have a meal and you watch a video and you have discussion and you can just go there and questions but you're you you you're with the same a group of people who are on the starting on the way and we're starting on 15th of January. It's a Thursday nights. It's free and that kind

Maximiliano: Thursday nights. Yeah. Thursdays. Not okay. Interesting.

Mark: But the thing is you could run you could look at the video alpha videos with somebody else. You know, you can sit down with with another person, go through the operator with two or three people and but a course like that is very helpful because it gives you a chance to build relationships with people to a place where you feel like you can trust them and it gives you a chance to have questions answered and to think about becoming a follower of the way yourself. M and so I I get that none of us wants to pull back the curtains and say this is who I truly am because fundamentally there's shame attached to revealing who we truly are.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Of course.

Mark: there's shame attached. But fundamentally until we get to that place it's very hard to meet God.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah. Because you can't be righteous and have God as righteous at the same time. Either either you're righteous or God is righteous or either God is righteous and you're not righteous. And that's the big barrier I think for most pe most people. Most people would love to know God. So So sorry if if if uh for people who don't Okay. So let me see if if my my thought process is right. You're saying that being truly yourself is or acknowledging your true self not only in front of others but also in front well in front of God most importantly that is where you find God acknowledging your true self and asking for forgiveness and asking for a new life because you can acknowledge your true self but not want to change.

Mark: That's a good point. Yeah. I mean, they have a joke in English about how many light light bulbs. How many how many light bulbs How many psychiatrist does it take to change a light bulb? Just one. But the light bulb's got to want to change. And And that's the thing, you got to want to change. You got to want you got to want to be forgiven. You have to feel the burden.

Maximiliano: Yeah. most f most most popular book ever written apart from the Bible. It's called Pilgrim's Progress. It's a it's a book written by John Bunan and it's about the journey of a someone who's on the way. And when he starts his journey, he's carrying this massive rucks sack. And the rucks sack is his sin. And as he walks, it's heavy, heavy, heavy, burn it, weighing down. And he climbs up a hill and he gets to the top of the hill and there's a tiny little gate. And it says, "Who whosoever will can enter in?" and he enters into the gate and as he enters into the gate the rucks suck falls off and rolls down the hill and he's suddenly feeling light. This is the experience of becoming of being born again, becoming a follower of Jesus, a disciple of the way. My son Samuel, you might know when he was 14, he was going off to a camp and uh it's very emotional for me. tell you about but tear up and I and I he was going to a Christian camp and I said, "Sam, I bought you a Bible to take with you so you can because they've been reading the Bible." And Sam took the Bible from me and he said, "Dad, thank you for the Bible, but I'm not really feeling this. I don't really feel I don't really believe this. I don't really feel the need for this." And all the way home, I just wept. I cried with sadness for my son. And a week later, he came back and he said, "Dad, you wouldn't believe what happened. I was in a meeting and they said, "If you want to accept Jesus, come forward." And I went forward to accept Jesus. And it felt like burden had fallen off my back. And he never read Pilgrim's Progress, but that feeling is there. And what people who are not followers of the way are experiencing is a massive burden. And you have to know that. You have to experience and understand this burden you're carrying. This longing for reality, this longing for truth. Um, we're living in a world where people have everything they need to to live, but they have nothing to live for. And what this what this is producing is people who are carrying a burden, but they don't understand how to be freed from that burden and to find a life that is really worth living. What a beautiful story. I felt that that that does go to my next question. Sorry, my accent escaped. Um, which is, and this not a question from me, but a question uh from somebody else on that Sunday meal. How have you seen the like what is the biggest you've seen God move?

Mark: I've been thinking about that question because you you sent it to me and I thought a lot about that. I I thought you Yeah, I thought it was a rough question to ask. I tell you it's it's right now. It's it's today. It's right now is the biggest I've seen God move. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Maximiliano: How come?

Mark: Well, I'm a sociologist and a historian, a politician. So, so I I I come at it from a political understanding but um you know we Christian at least in in the west in the Protestant West I don't know enough about Catholic world to comment but in the Protestant West um 500 years ago we had Luther we had the for foundation of Protestantism and um through people like Billy Graham and George Whitfield field and John John Wesley. Um in the 19 in the 18th century a large percentage of the population of this country and the United States um accept became followers of the way and so we had a situation where this country was defined by Christianity and a lot of our institutions carry that definition. We could talk about Moses, the law of Moses. We speak about that. You can come back to that if you want to later on. And what happened was that the West, certainly the UK in the English speaking world became defined by people who are following the way. And certainly in this country, Queen Victoria, her reign was a time when following the way became a big big thing. World War I happens and people are saying, "What's going on here? Where's God? Where's God in the trenches?"

Maximiliano: That has to be...

Mark: Where's God in the trenches?

Maximiliano: Rough for sure.

Mark: World War II happens. The Communists have offered up a what they call a paradise. The Nazis have offered up what they call paradise. And billions of millions of people are killed. So neither of them are offering much of a paradise. And but at the end of World War II, we had a situation where people regarded the claims of Christ as being personalized and private privatized. So they would say to me, "This is your belief. Go with it. That's fine. But don't force it on me because I don't believe it. So because I don't believe it, it doesn't affect me and and it affects you because you believe it, which is which is crazy because if if we're talking about the real God who we're going to meet one day after when we die, that's going to affect everybody. Not not just not not just people who are followers of...

Maximiliano: I mean it's a a good theory.

Mark: Yeah. This doesn't work.

Maximiliano: It's it's a good human theory. I would say it's a great human theory and it led to many things.

Mark: Yeah. I I mean the Bible says though once it is appointed until a man once to die and after death they face judgment. So everybody's facing judgment not just the people who believe it now. Um and that's what happened pretty much in the 60s and the 70s and the 80s and the 90s and the naughties and that's what the feel but something changed in 2008 when the economy collapsed and something changed with co And in co 20% of the people who had been going to church took the opportunity to leave church. So a lot of churches started to shrink by about 20%. And some churches shrank by a lot more.

Maximiliano: Churches had been attended by people who attended there not because they were enjoying the joy but because this is what they always did.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: And so then you had co And um you had an excuse to just say no. Yeah. Just disappear. And so after two years, Broadway Baptist for instance, after two years there was no pastor and there was um...

Maximiliano: no pastor.

Mark: Yeah. He he retired and there were just a dozen of elderly people and we were meeting upstairs what's called a highly...

Maximiliano: a dozen.

Mark: Dozen.

Maximiliano: Okay. Just so you know guys, this is one of the biggest churches I've seen. The amount of people go church sees 500 people and there were a dozen...

Mark: there were 12 people there. And what happened just before CO was that we amalgamated with them. So we became one church, one group.

Maximiliano: Okay. But with co um there was a real shaking up and lovely as those people were many of them felt we don't really we don't really feel comfortable with broad meets the new broad meet we don't like we don't like the singing we don't like we want we want the organ we we don't really like...

Mark: we...

Maximiliano: yeah we don't really like this stuff about knowing Jesus personally and this so so and the but so what basically happened was after co we were left there and we became Broadway Baptist Church. Mhm. In the last year and a half, we've seen a dramatic increase in young men especially interested in church, interested in Jesus, interested in reading go in reading the Bible, interested in understanding more and a turning away from the diet that the internet is feeding us and the diet that the mass media is feeding us and a a healthy a healthy what's the word? A healthy skepticism about the message that the media is projecting to us. I mean we watch the BBC now not not because we believe but because we want to see what the media is telling us and what what were the powers of beer tonight.

Mark: I got to say I don't watch any media. Um I heard from...

Maximiliano: what has it turned you off in the media?

Mark: It's it's mainly it's not relevant.

Maximiliano: Not relevant. It's interesting.

Mark: Uh most of I would say there's uh well there's a concept in business because I'm yeah focused in business...

Maximiliano: which is uh noise to signal ratio.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: And I would say the main distinction um or the main thing that I try to focus in my life. So it's basically cutting off everything that is distraction basically. um it's it's the way I would put it is focusing on my own soul first.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: It's um so everything about media, everything about warh as terrible as I find it. Yeah. As much as I want to change it, it's not relevant for my situation now.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: I'm a 24 year old. Whatever I do now is going to impact the future.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: So, if I grow faster, so to say, or...

Maximiliano: yeah,

Mark: I know do more stuff and prepare myself to then confront the problems that will occur in the future. I feel it's a better way to do it anyway.

Maximiliano: Definitely. That's that's my view and that's why I distinct...

Mark: And I get that and I and I think but I think that what you're expressing is what is a lot of people feel too. I mean you see our church they're not all my age they're all your age.

Maximiliano: Yeah. I I find that so impressive.

Mark: They're all your age.

Maximiliano: They're all 20 something year olds.

Mark: It's just 20 something is and the ones who are 40 came to us when they were 20. You know they've been going 15 years. So the ones who are older actually came to us with 15 years ago. And I mean on Sunday um when we had the children doing something and one of the little girls was there and she was talking about how long you been in the church and and I said well actually you've been in the church you're eight years old but you actually been the church nine years because we were praying for you and and this is what we're seeing now. But my point is that now more than any other time in modern history, there is a desire in people for authenticity and for a life that is built on solid foundations. And what I would say is there's a longing for the way. And actually what I what I'm organizing and what I'm spending my time doing at the moment is I'm organizing a big meeting like the one I got saved in. So we we're at Action Gate Stadium 1984 in 2026 uh in the center of Broad Meet what they call the amphitheater. And I' I've I've booked that place.

Maximiliano: That's great.

Mark: I've lit I've literally personally booked that place.

Maximiliano: Okay. Okay.

Mark: They charge us a grand. That's fine. A,000 pounds whatever it is. And I booked that place and I've got a guy now I want who I want to speak and I'm going to go around and visit every church I know and say come and help me. And in May 25th, 2026, we're going to have a a meeting similar to the one I became a Christian at. in that amphitheater and I'm gonna be s and we're gonna put out adverts. I think I'm gonna stick them on the back of buses. Um Jesus illegal...

Maximiliano: Bristol City is what it is. Well, sorry.

Mark: No, no, no. Pay paid to actually.

Maximiliano: Oh, okay. Publicity.

Mark: Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Putting something on a bus is is reasonably cheap.

Maximiliano: Pretty good.

Mark: Yeah. Is is is is probably Yeah, it's reasonably cheap.

Maximiliano: Yeah. So, so I won't do legal, but but and then and then o open the doors for these young adults to have an experience of what it means to follow the way and to be a disciple of Jesus and to find in Jesus the uh a transformation for their lives. And so this is my big dream just to to to push this forward.

Maximiliano: Um, I got to I got to say every every time somebody tells me this kind of stuff, something that they really wanted to do for a because I can tell I can tell you you've been wanting to do it for a long time. You've been you're excited, incredibly excited. You're you're like there and and I can tell not only because of your tone of voice and the way you say it, but it's also what you want to do. You put the posters about that go through every church that you know that passion.

Mark: Oh my god. I I I I love to see people in I lie awake at night thinking about it. Thinking about it. I say, "Lord, just make it happen."

Maximiliano: Oh my god. That's That's incredible. Now see now when I was studying sociology they were introducing what they called postmodernism and postmodernism so you don't need me to tell you what that is.

Mark: Yeah, I know. I hate it. Anyway, but for the viewers, please.

Maximiliano: Well, well, postmodern has has many um for so for in Whit Dickensstein says limits, but the limits of our language are the limits of my world. And postmodernism says, I I invent my own reality. You invent your own reality. We've tried that. From from there goes all the uh the LGBTQ plus uh movement, the fourth wave of feminism, all of that stuff.

Mark: Uh radical left currently, art movement and so on.

Maximiliano: But what but what is what they didn't foresee was how the internet would weaponize the outcomes. So if you're in 1985 and you're saying I invent my own reality, two people know.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: If you're n in 2026 and you say I invent my own reality, you can get a million people watching you and your voice becomes and so the internet's become an echo chamber for this.

Mark: Yes.

Maximiliano: What it actually has led to is isolation. You wouldn't believe how many young men I meet and I say to them, "How many conversations have you had with somebody in in in physical a physical conversation have you had with somebody this week?" And they say, "Nobody." I spoke to a friend in my country on Zoom a while ago. Nobody. And I I I I confess I confess as as a as a as a Italian at heart, I've got I I kind of really like Georgia Maloney. I mean, there's been probably a divide here. So divide your how it is.

Mark: She is the prime minister of Italy.

Maximiliano: Oh. Oh. Oh, yeah. Her I love her. Yeah, I love her. She's very...

Mark: She's She's on it. She's passionate, too.

Maximiliano: She's very passionate for sure. She's very Italian.

Mark: But what she said when she...

Maximiliano: radical uh right-wing conservative

Mark: Yeah, definitely a new conservative. She she made an interesting point. She said that the internet is being is being used by the corporations to turn us all into the perfect consumer. And we have no identity. Mr. Mrs. He, her, no identity. A parent one, parent two, no identity apart from being consumers. And he, the people of your generation are saying, "We didn't vote for this. We didn't vote for this isolation. We didn't vote for this being utilized. We didn't vote to become just like, you know, I can I can um uh that film with Oh, forgot. We we didn't vote to be this this consumer just be just being there receiving eating what they give us and and and and accepting what they sell us." And they're looking for this joy that comes from an engagement with God himself through the person of Jesus. That's what they're looking for. Um I would like to just to for before I forget can I read this little poem about Jesus please? One solitary life. He was is this is um by James Allen Francis. He was born in an obscure village a child of a peasant. He grew up in another village where he worked in a carpenter shop until he was 30. Then for three years he was an itinerant preacher. He never wrote a book. He never held an office. He never had a family or owned a home. He didn't go to college. He never never lived in a big city. He never traveled 200 miles from the place where he was born. He did none of the things that usually accompany greatness. He had no credentials but himself. He was only 33 when the tide of public opinion turned against him. His friends ran away. One of them denied him. He was try turned over to his enemies. Went through the mockery of a trial. He was nailed to a cross between two thieves. While he was dying, his executioners gambled for his garments, the only property he had on earth. When he was dead, he was laid in a bar grave through the pity of a friend. 20 centuries have come and gone, and today he is the central figure of the human race. I'm well within the mark when I say that all the armies that ever marched, all the navies that ever sailed, all the parliaments that ever sat, all the kings that ever reigned, put together have not affected the life of man on this earth as much as that one solitary life. And this is the person that we're following, Jesus. It's incredible. It's just it takes my breath away to see how utterly transformational his life is. Even our legal system, as you said before, Moses, it's all Moses. Our the whole legal system is based on Moses...  

Maximiliano: based on that in some Roman...

Mark: Exactly.

Maximiliano: philosopher.

Mark: And Jesus completed Moses. Moses pointed to Jesus because he was the one who fully per who fully performed the law, who never failed the law, who never sinned. And he is the one who is at work now. And I believe me, I'm more excited now than I've ever been about what God is doing in this country and and around the West. Even when I go to Italy, it's happening in Italy. When you go to France, it's happening in France. I think something every nine days a new church is open. A new gospel church is opening up in France. And France has always been very secular.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: It's just something...

Maximiliano: 1700s.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: After they killed them all in the 1700s.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: So, this is certainly what I'm I'm more excit I'm excited now than more than ever.

Mark: Yeah. That's something huge to be excited about, I'd say. feel um it's uh I feel something is happening in in society. I don't I am I I don't know what it is though.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Mark: 2026 is pregnant. There's a baby coming.

Maximiliano: Basically...

Mark: 2026 is pregnant. There's a baby coming. I feel it will take a couple decades though. 2026 will be a very interesting...

Maximiliano: I I think that I think I think that people will change now and the out...

Mark: the results will be...

Maximiliano: a couple decades.

Mark: Well yeah yeah so so as as as they move into positions of responsibility then the world will but I think that I would have to say that the devil has overplayed his hand. He's he's trying to turn people into you know into just consumers and he's overplayed his hand.

Maximiliano: Well, there was this Oh my god. Um this thing that I saw on a real which was a question to chat GBT about uh how would Chat GBT act if they were the devil.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: If it was the devil...

Mark: great question and even better answer.

Maximiliano: Wow. which was basically I would not try to I would make you uh believe that I don't exist.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Uh that everything is upside down. So everything can be right and everything can be wrong and then slowly it's basically a death by poisoning type of thing. If you guys want to search it up, uh, please Google that or ask Chadviti.

Mark: What would I do if I was a devil? Is that is that the question?

Maximiliano: What? Yeah. What uh would Chad do or Gemini or any...

Mark: AI model?

Maximiliano: You were the devil. What you do if there were the devil?

Mark: I I feel that's a powerful.

Maximiliano: I'll do it when I get home. I'll log it in.

Mark: Yeah. Because I I can't really Yeah. explain it fully.

Maximiliano: Well, Mark, I I got one more uh question um which comes from somebody who was the quietest quietest uh that day on Sunday. I won't say the name. Um and and and it made me uh realize how important and crucial that question was not only for myself but also for my family as well. Uh because well my family complicated situation. There's uh basically one side of my family that shames me for going to church.

Mark: Really?

Maximiliano: Um yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. um another one that just disbelieves it. Uh other ones who encourage and so on but but it's mainly towards uh the the negative experiences not only of the family but also from the world. I would say all the challenges that you see uh like we talked about in World War I.

Mark: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Uh what is happening currently in the Israel Palestine uh conflict? What is happening um in Ghana?

Mark: Uh what has happened in...

Maximiliano: Nigeria? Well then well Ecuador etc etc etc. It's basically this world is one mess one big mess after the other. So the the question is how do you actually overcome uh this challenges uh of life uh and how do you go through it by faith?

Mark: That's a really good question. That's a really good question. Um, the Bible says something really interesting about God. It says that God or God God stands behind good. So God God is absolutely behind everything that is good. But he also stands behind evil but in a different way. God stands behind good completely but he stands behind evil in a way which is kind of oblique an oblique kind of way. Um and he is working his plans and purposes out for this world. So people who do evil things, they are judged for the evil things they did. Things which cannot be attributed to people. For instance, children with handicaps and these kinds of situations. Those situations are happening because we're living in a world which is in in rebellion to to to its creator. And so the sin contamination is matched by other forms of contamination in the human body. His plan is to return and the return of Jesus Christ is a reality that could occur even tonight. The Bible says that before Jesus comes, the gospel will be preached in all the world. And the fastest growing church in the world is in China, the far east. And the fastest growing churches are in countries which were not Christian before. But they are but the the gospel is progressing and the knowledge of Jesus is covering the world like the waters cover the sea. And Jesus said in in in in in Mark 10 uh that he would come back when um Matthew 24 he said he would come back and it'll be a surprise for people and then he will usher into usher in a new heaven and a new earth. And the return of Christ is can I say this? The Cinderella of doctrines. It's this it's the doctrine no one speaks about because the people in churches Christianity has become too comfortable for people and this life has become very comfortable for people and the idea of Jesus coming back and all of this finishing is uncomfortable even for an awful lot of Christians. But that's the reality that we're living with. The reality is that there could come a day tomorrow when he will come and will be taken. And those who have chosen to to follow the way will enter into a perfect perfection of that experience. And those who choose to reject him will their rejection will be compounded and consolidated and affirmed by by Jesus. And their destination is an eternal hell. And that those who respond to Jesus, their destination is to be with Jesus in heaven. And there'll be a new heaven and a new earth. And this life we're living here now, I think, will be like a dream. I think we we'll kind of know we were here, we'll know this happened. But that that that experience is going to be so amazing that it's going to be hard to even have any connection here now. And the Bible says that even that people who are married, they won't be married in heaven. I will love my wife in heaven as much as I love everybody else in heaven. I won't never anymore. Of course, I'll probably remember her, but it would be different. And the return of Christ is the biggest event that's ever going to happen because he's not going to come the way Jesus came before just man in a in a context. No matter how as we read in that poem, no matter how amazing he is, he's going to come as Lord and King and he's going to say, "Right, this is the end." And then history will can be completed. The whole world is heading towards that moment. The purpose of life is to uh to be ready for that moment. I once said to my mother, "What is the purpose of life? Why are we here?" And she said something really interesting. She said, "You're here that you know you fulfilled your purpose when you look over your shoulder and see people who are following Jesus because they met you." That's the purpose of life. purpose of life is to follow him and and to encourage others to follow with you because he's coming back.

Maximiliano: Mark, thank you very much for being on this podcast.

Mark: My pleasure. My pleasure. Look forward to seeing it.

Maximiliano: Me too. I actually replay every podcast. So, it's always great to...

Mark: Great to see you.

Maximiliano: Great to meet you, sir. Um, thank you very much uh once again uh for being in uh this podcast. Um please follow us on Instagram, uh YouTube, uh Soundcloud, Spotify, maybe depends on what the producers on uh and Tik Tok. Tik Tok. What? Yes, Tik Tok. Uhhuh. Perfect. Got it. at the end.

Mark: I know Tik Tok exists.

Maximiliano: Yeah, me too. I...

Mark: I have YouTube.

Maximiliano: Yeah, me too. I got YouTube, Instagram, and that's about it.

Mark: I know Tik Tok exist. Yeah,

Maximiliano: the rest I live it. So, yeah, it's been great. Yeah.

Mark: Thank you very much again. Uh and see you in the next podcast.