Malcolm Golding: Full Podcast Transcript

Host: Maximiliano Fabres

Guest: Malcom Golding

Location: Bristol, UK

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH9uhxfw-CQ&t=667s

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5Tc1YpM4tJRTfA7PeGzuIc?si=0e39cc732c684f9d

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Malcolm: I was always happy drawing because that was an escape. I'm dyslexic, but painting seemed to be just natural. The owner said, "Would you come back to India and paint a big picture in my new house?" and I became friends with people like Indira Gandhi. That publicity alone gave me projects all over Asia. I did projects for the Hong Kong government, which was English of those time. You have to let people know that you're enthusiastic with whatever the idea is.  

Maximiliano: Hello guys, welcome back to Beyond the Horizon podcast, the podcast where you expand your horizons of knowledge. Uh with me today, Malcolm Golding. Uh just a quick intro. He's an incredibly successful artist that has uh followed opportunity everywhere around the world. That for sure. Um so yeah. Um Malcolm, who are you?

Malcolm: I'm a lucky person. Uh because I do what I want to do. I mean I'm an artist. That's good enough. Doing what you like doing with your life is a gift in any case. You don't have to be successful. You don't have to, you know, show off, but the mere fact that you can get up and do what you like doing every day is just too good to be true. Really. You come along with an idea and you try to fashion it and create something not for other people to see because I have stacks of work that I just have for myself now. I don't even try to show to people. Um, and I've got into this terrible situation where I don't even try to sell to anyone because I like what I'm doing so much I want to keep it for myself, which is a real predicament.

Maximiliano: Yeah, that's a real problem like that. Well, it's... I'm not sure if when you... because I can't replace... I know that I could reproduce again the same thing, but it's not the same thing because every time you do a particular piece, that's the enthusiasm's there.

Malcolm: Yeah. It's just different like it's a different soul. That's absolutely once you're asked to, "Oh, could you do that again?" Um, your enthusiasm's not there.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: And it's like pulling teeth out, you know? I mean, it's just... And I did that once or twice and I learned my lesson. Um...

Maximiliano: So you don't do it again.

Malcolm: I don't absolutely do not reproduce again. You can take the work to a printer.

Maximiliano: Interesting. Oh, I... you know the worst thing is reproducing again because you have somebody else that wants to buy again.

Malcolm: Well, no, that's painful.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: You know, you don't enjoy it as an artist.

Maximiliano: You don't? Okay. Interesting.

Malcolm: No. Part of the enjoyment of having a white piece of paper and producing something is the game of chess that you play on that white piece of paper, you know, using your intuition, using your knowledge, being able to twist and turn and even throw a little kind of a challenge in the artwork for yourself. But once you've done that piece, you can go on to another subject and, you know, enjoy it again. But going through the same piece again, I can understand how for instance Van Gogh just carried on painting the sunflowers. I mean he was a little crazy. So he just carried on painting, man. It would make you crazy.

Maximiliano: Yeah. I'm sure you can be after like 50,000 sunflowers.

Malcolm: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Yeah. I know. Well, but... so let me fully, or let me and the audience fully understand who you are as a person. So I know you grew up in England. So what was it like before art actually became central to your life? Who were you? Who was that little boy maybe? Or...

Malcolm: Well, I was always happy drawing because that was an escape because I'm dyslexic in terms of... I find it very hard to read or write or to remember what I've read. Um, and so... but drawing, painting seemed to be just natural. I mean, I could figure out perspective without somebody telling me about it. I could figure out shading. That all came without even being taught. Um, so that was a way of showing my ability. And when I was like, you know, junior in school, I used to be top of the school each term and I would get a book on art which was great. Problem was the book on art only had about three or four pictures and the rest was all writing.

Maximiliano: Right. That's...

Malcolm: And so to me it was like you're just, you know, adding insult to the situation because I'm getting a book on art, but it was the life story of Picasso and and I couldn't freaking read it. Oh god.

Maximiliano: It feels like... Oh, it's like... I don't know now that we just... it just happened to be Valentine's. You know when like your partner just gifts you something that just is in the right direction...

Malcolm: Yes.

Maximiliano: ...but just like slightly off. And it's like, I mean I really appreciate the effort, but...

Malcolm: Yeah, that's these days you have to be very careful.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: In being kind or wanting to care. You have to be careful because you can upset people by your friendship or your feelings, you know. Um, I remember which was a case I just got my first job as a window designer.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: In England, in Oxford Street for a fashion company.

Maximiliano: Mhm.

Malcolm: In the 60s. So fashion was very big in the 60s in terms of it was just everything, you know. And so I managed to get a job as art director for a fashion house and they had several shops in Knightsbridge and Oxford Street and everywhere and I was so happy.

Maximiliano: Mhm.

Malcolm: Um, and it was my boss's birthday and I'd been there for about a year, creating window displays which was like, "Wow, this is, you know, everyone could see my window display." And so I was so happy that I bought my boss... and you're talking about Valentine's Day... I bought my boss a big bunch of red roses just because I was so naive and I thought, "I'm happy it's his birthday, big bunch of red roses." And I went and I gave him this big bunch of red roses. The next day I was fired.

Maximiliano: Well, yes.

Malcolm: Because he thought that I was gay and that, you know, that shouldn't happen. And so literally the next day I was fired because of that.

Maximiliano: That's crazy. Because of my naivety. You know, I was naive in thanking him for the situation.

Malcolm: Um, so you have to be careful. You have to think it out a little bit sometimes before you jump and be kind of doing somebody a favor or showing your feelings.

Maximiliano: Yeah, it's a minefield. I mean, yeah, that... I mean, I hope you learned your lesson.

Malcolm: I did.

Maximiliano: Yeah, you did. Okay, that's good. At least once.

Malcolm: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Make the mistake once and then that's good.

Malcolm: But that... it's a simple... I was naive. It's a simple thing. But then perhaps, you see, when you look back, he may have been gay and didn't want anyone to know. I don't know. You know, who knows? I don't know the story.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Um, but I very quickly learned that one door closes, another door opens. So you know, you carry on with life.

Malcolm: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Um, so like if we would meet young Malcolm, how would you describe him?

Malcolm: Well, I had a lot of confidence in my ability. There was one fashion designer, a French fashion designer... I was designing ladies fashion in London... and the French fashion designer said to me, "The only thing you can say is say yes." And I said, "What?" And he said, "Never say no, say yes to any project, say yes." And I thought that's a silly thing to... you know, that's kind of a silly thing. But in having... not thinking out the situation, if somebody approaches you and sort of says, "Can you paint this on my wall?" don't think about it. Just sort of say yes because they have figured out that you possibly could do it. So they've done the figuring out you possibly are capable of doing it. So all you have to do is say yes. Now, your end of the bargain is you have to do it.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: Um, but you're not going to get anywhere if you hesitate.

Maximiliano: No, of course. Yeah. I think that's particularly important for artists because there's a lot of doubt for artists if they're capable of doing and they just don't jump. Well, I don't... I don't know. I don't know what is so predominantly an artist that actually makes that happen quite often. I would say you have to... any creative person has to... usually they have to trust themselves a little bit. Most creative people are very unsure of themselves, you know, because they're putting themselves on the line and they don't know whether their work is as good as the person next to them. They always think the work of the person next door is better. But there's got to be some definition of... you could be the one next door who is better. So you have to trust yourself a little bit and be a little confident but not overconfident. Um, and remember that, you know, an opportunity is a gift.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: It doesn't come all the time. An opportunity is a gift and you have to respect that. But say yes to it. I think I've only said no like twice to an opportunity in my life.

Maximiliano: So then talking about opportunity actually, when did you feel like the calling towards art? What was it in particular? Was it a particular moment or...

Malcolm: Yeah, absolutely. I think I was about seven or eight years old maybe.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: Um, and I was in a junior school in London and I was painting and I can still remember the picture. It was an African hut. I don't know why, but it was an African hut on a piece of sugar paper which like brown paper, grayish paper. And I was halfway through this African hut and the class ended. So the art teacher said, "You can carry on painting it." So I carried on painting and then the next class that came in was a bunch of girls. I don't know, but it was a bunch of girls. I mean, we're all like six, seven years old or maybe something like that. So I am painting this African jungle hut and all these girls in their gym outfits or whatever were around me going, "Wow, that's so good. That's so nice." And I'm thinking, "Okay, this is the calling. This is my calling. This is God telling me something. Yes, this is..." And no, it was for the first time probably people appreciating something, you know, and and it was the appreciation. And for a seven or eight year old, being surrounded by beautiful females was the right calling. They were my angels, I guess.

Maximiliano: They were your angels. Yeah. No, fair enough. It's... I mean, whatever. It does sound like a calling though. It does sound like you're called to do it.

Malcolm: I don't think that you necessarily have to wait for the sky to open and for God to say you are the one.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: Sometimes in life little things help you go that extra mile. They give you that extra little confidence, then that makes the spark. And of course at that sort of age your mentality is, you know, that's open to it. Yes. Your mentality as you grow, as you go through life, as you grow up, your opinion of life changes, it matures, it... becomes... I wouldn't... I'm not saying it becomes cynical, but it cements. You read between the lines a lot and... I would say you try to read between the lines. Well, I found it interesting... I'm a listener, I love listening because I was never that confident until later on in life of expressing myself. So listening was my great kind of hobby and you learn a lot from listening to people and trying to understand and an artist is a voyeur. He looks, he listens, he records, and he keeps things until he then regurgitates them into something that for his entertainment might work out amusing, right?

Maximiliano: Yeah. I have lots of little snippets of things that crop up from years and years ago, memories and things, and I use those. It's actually quite interesting thing is when I hear those things about like recollection of thoughts and so on, I always think of... so I know this because I read a little bit about the brain. So we only keep information which is important to us, which is basically has an emotional attachment to us and the most important information I would say has to do with the fears that we overcame at some point. So what do you reckon is like the key elements that you stored within your memory? To say...

Malcolm: Well, because I discarded everything in life but art, you know, art was my passage, my passageway, so I focused...

Maximiliano: You would have had to be so fearful at the beginning, I'm guessing.

Malcolm: Well, I looked upon life in the beginning as a big triangle, a pyramid. Okay. And literally I looked at all my friends, all my surroundings as the base of the pyramid. And as you go up the pyramid, the pyramid gets, you know, the baseline gets smaller and smaller. And I consider that life is a similar thing. You slowly get to the top of the pyramid which is the point which is, if you like, it is like the point of realization. You don't need everything else around you, like I don't... If I said I don't need art around me to understand how important my life is, I would almost agree with myself. But then for me the daily art is like a daily exercise. But being still intrigued by art, by the fact that the simplicity of art, the simplicity of being a human being and producing something that only you in the whole universe has produced. So not only the world, but only you has produced that particular thing whether it's good or bad doesn't matter with those atoms, with that thing in particular in that... I mean, I remember sitting down and my mother sort of saying, "Draw me a picture." And she said, "I can't draw." I said, "But just draw anything." And she drew something and I said, "You know that picture is the only picture in the whole universe. That's the only one." And to me, that's worth billions of pounds, which is true, right? Um, and I think we sort of forget and we're pushed into this thing of it's got to be worth something. Its values are only according to what you want to put on something. Right. When I finish, I usually produce like one drawing or painting, if you like to call it that, every three days. And I do it, I put it out and I look at it for one evening, then I put it on top of the pile and I don't look at it again. The excitement is in the process and it's not in how good it is or if somebody likes it. And life is... each day... and I know it's a cliché, but each day is a gift where you need to enjoy the moment because yesterday is done. Tomorrow may not get here, but the moment is here. And even if you stay in bed all day, it doesn't matter. But you need to feel comfortable with... I mean, you can stay in bed today and then tomorrow you say, "I think I'll get up and do something." That's productive. That's making use of staying in bed all day. I often pretend I'm sick and I stay in bed all day. And because if you're not sick, but you pretend you're sick, then you're putting some pretend money, pretend sick money in your bed and saying this is an insurance, you know.

Maximiliano: That's good. That's actually... yeah.

Malcolm: I do enjoy being sick. I am not really sick. Well, I'm not a sick person. I've only been in a hospital once in my life. Um, but I pretend to be sick sometimes just to get it out of the way.

Maximiliano: Well, I love my four-poster bed. So, I pretend to be sick and I stay in bed for the... because I love my four-poster bed. Um, and it's not just for sleeping in, you know, it's also... it's been a good friend of mine because I can dream and everything else in it. So, there we are.

Malcolm: Well, you were talking beforehand. I just really want to talk a little bit more about that story of yours. So you started working at this cigarette factory in...

Maximiliano: Basildon, Essex.

Malcolm: In Essex. Okay. Basildon.

Maximiliano: Basin. It's a new town.

Malcolm: And my mother... I come from Edmonton in London. My mother and father moved down to Basildon because of a job and a house, the council house. And it was just being built at the time, Basildon. So, it was a new town. Um, and it's very much like Pink Floyd, you know, another brick in the wall. Hey teacher, don't mess with those kids. It's like a very controlled environment.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: And for the best part, it drove me crazy, you know.

Maximiliano: Sure.

Malcolm: Everybody, every young person in Basildon wanted to escape from Basildon. It was like the Alcatraz of new towns. You just wanted to escape from it. And that was a great thing. You know, there was a lot of talent that came from...

Maximiliano: I have a theory on why English people started colonizing other countries and it's mainly because that England looks so much alike. I would say like the towns that they just like all... within the town they're like all the houses look the same. But it's an interesting thing. So on. It's just...

Malcolm: Most people that do escape...

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: ...and go to another country like I did... I went to India, then I went to Hong Kong, then I traveled all over Asia, and now I've come back to England as a... I'm a tourist. I've come back and I listen to people talking and I love it because I can understand what they're saying, you know. Um, and I think in the old days when you had to go... get go in the army and go somewhere for five years or something, you realize how wonderful England is. You have to go away from England to come back to understand how great it is.

Maximiliano: How wonderful it is. Yes. Um...

Malcolm: It's wonderful in a lot of different ways. Um...

Maximiliano: I think that's what I need to do with Chile. I haven't been back in about six years now and I just don't... I really loved Chile, the scenery and so on.

Malcolm: Yes.

Maximiliano: But it's... I just there wasn't anything for me to do there. So that's why I moved on.

Malcolm: Yeah. Traveling, you know, traveling is a great thing. It helps you balance the lifestyles of different people, the values of different people. It helps for you to balance your own direction and figure out things. Um, and I'm very grateful for the traveling in my life.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Well, but going back to a cigarette story, you used to draw on the cartons.

Malcolm: Well, yeah. I was in the export department and it was all guys. There was like 30 guys.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: And you know, I was in the export department on a conveyor belt and the cartons would come along and you'd have a batch of cartons going to Abu Dhabi or a batch... you know, it was Dunhill and Craven A and Rothmans cigarettes. And so you would have a whole shipload going to a certain country. They would have the stencil and you know, going to Iceland or wherever it went...

Maximiliano: Wherever it went. Yeah.

Malcolm: So, I... and I had felt-tip pens that you have to kind of do a tick on, tick the box or something like that.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: Um, and so they would... they would go on their roller conveyor belt. So I would tip the box upside down, draw on the base of the box some little thing while the carton was moving along and then tip it back down again and then smile and know that that little drawing was going to go to the far corners of the universe. And in that way I felt that I was getting my message out. I can't remember what I actually drew and I certainly didn't write anything because I'm not capable of writing things, but little instant little drawings because you're moving along the conveyor belt so they have to be quick. But I got a lot of self-satisfaction. Oh god, the thing is I listen to...

Maximiliano: I don't recommend that for people in jobs because obviously you're defacing the product.

Malcolm: Yeah, I know. Of course. The thing is I listen to this podcast called Founders. Incredible, incredible podcast. It's about this... so it's about different founders of companies, but other great... I'll call it personalities in history. So, and they all have these small things that they do that they just like do it for self-satisfaction, just like this drawing. And it just like reminds me so much to this type of personalities. I don't know why. It's just...

Malcolm: Well, I found I worked in that factory for about a year and a half and I decided that I wanted to buy a brand new sports car. So it was a Triumph Spitfire Mark III.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: Brand new. So I did all the overtime I could. I saved up all the money and I placed an order from the factory for a white sports car, white hood, wire wheels, everything...

Maximiliano: Shiny, shiny, beautiful.

Malcolm: Um, and I I got the sports car. I had... for a year I had the brochure on my bedroom wall looking at it and "I will get you, I will get you." And eventually I got the sports car obsession and I went with my father. I picked it up from the garage. I drove it home and I was so happy. Six months later, I gave that sports car to my girlfriend. Gave it. I said, "Drive it around."

Maximiliano: Oh my god.

Malcolm: I'm done with it.

Maximiliano: And why?

Malcolm: The... I realized that the dream was far more potent. The dream of it, the living dream, was far more toxic, you know, than the first two or three months, right? Then after it didn't have the thing and life is like that. The dream of where you would like to be or what you would like to have... there are very few things that you can hold on to in life and still love it, love them, you know. Collectors collect things and then after a while they replace their collection with like a tenth of the pieces, but they throw away all the bad stuff and they only have like five pieces of the best of their collection.

Maximiliano: Okay?

Malcolm: Because they don't want the rubbish. But they start off by collecting rubbish. And life is like that. You start off by collecting things that you think are going to make you a better person. I thought the sports car would take me everywhere in life, you know. But getting it was the achievement. For for the moment it was the achievement. Um, and it it still doesn't seem like relevant to me that you should hold on to things. I mean, I've got one or two things which I hold on to because person... there's a story behind them and it reminds me. But I've had property, etc. But your life is evolving all the time.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: And you go through different sensations in your life.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Well, that's a thing that I think I truly agree on and I would say it has to do with traveling. If you move a lot and you do many house moves, let's call it, then you learn that you have to get rid of most of the stuff. You can't take it along with you on your journey. And I don't think I have anything that I've had for many, many years. I... I don't have like school pictures. I don't... I just get rid of them because there's no... I mean the... they're great and lovely and my mom probably keeps them, but I just... it's not for me. It's not something for me. I find the people in my life that have shaped my life, you know, people that have given me a chance, are the people that I refer to as property, you know. I mean, they are the people that have shaped my direction...

Maximiliano: Your reality. Yes. It's just so...

Malcolm: ...and when you look back on those people, they gave you an opportunity to do things and they trusted you and you did them. And none of us are Einsteins, none of us are Picassos. I'm not really... I'm not a good artist. I know what I can do, I know what I can't do. That's a good lesson in life: knowing what you can and what you can't do. And if you just don't do the things you can't do, then pretty much people think that you're good at everything.

Maximiliano: I... yeah, I do. I do have a... on that. So, it's just... I was really confused by the... I'll call it school systems as a general thing. So it's not only school, but also university and so on, that they make you like open up your range of skills while in my opinion what you should actually focus in is just in the thing that you're good at and you love. So, the more specialized you are, the easier it is firstly to find a job for people looking for a job, but it's also better for you because then you don't have to do things that you don't like and you're bad at anyway.

Malcolm: That's right. And the more that you focus on a particular direction... like for instance in art, there's so many different ways you can go. It's not just "I'm going to be an artist." There's so many different individual ways that you can go. I mean there... you could be a dentist, but there's so many different individual ways of being a dentist.

Maximiliano: Yeah. And that's the thing.

Malcolm: And so you pick up the knowledge and you become... you acquire the knowledge which is specific to a situation and you become an expert in that. You don't have to become an expert in everything. I did know one guy who was good at everything.

Maximiliano: Oh.

Malcolm: I knew one guy.

Maximiliano: Really?

Malcolm: Yes. There was one guy and I I won't mention his name because he's quite well known, but there's one guy... bastard... and he was good at everything. And...

Maximiliano: No, go on. What is...

Malcolm: No, no, I can't. But he was so... so for instance he was good at, say, winning a game. He could win games. He could win a game like he was very good at winning games. You know, anything, any game he would... he could win. He was clever at winning games.

Maximiliano: Competitive clever, I'm guessing.

Malcolm: Yes. He would, you know, he would win.

Maximiliano: Is it like a tiger?

Malcolm: Well, I was sitting with him when he was like... when we were like 19 years old or something and we were having a steak in a pub in off of Bond Street.

Maximiliano: Mhm.

Malcolm: And he said, "Let's... let's order whatever. Let's order a steak each." Okay. And he said, "I have become a millionaire today." In those days, millionaire was quite a lot. 19 years old.

Maximiliano: Wait, may I ask how old you... this year? Or 80 years old?

Malcolm: 80. Okay.

Maximiliano: So, let me trace it back. So, I was... millionaire back then in the 60s, 69, maybe 1970 at the...

Malcolm: Okay. Okay. Um... millionaire was quite... calculating...

Maximiliano: I don't know. Okay. So, it should be about like 15 million.

Malcolm: Okay.

Maximiliano: It's like getting 15 million.

Malcolm: Yeah. It was quite... 12, 12 million probably today. It was pretty good chunk of money.

Maximiliano: Damn. Okay.

Malcolm: Anyway, we had our steaks.

Maximiliano: We had our steaks. That is crazy.

Malcolm: Um, and you know, I was like...

Maximiliano: 10 million.

Malcolm: Yeah. I was privy to sitting with a guy that had just become a millionaire. Yeah. And it sort of... but he... I remember him telling me something over this steak. He said, "You know the problem is, I pretend not to be good at things." I said, "How's that?" He says, "Well, all the time I win and my friends don't want to play games with me anymore, so I now pretend to lose so I keep my friends."

Maximiliano: Ah, then...

Malcolm: "I pretend not to be as smart as I am so that I don't piss off my friends because I want my friends, you know, right? And if you win all the time or if you know the answer to something all the time or if you can buy a Rolls-Royce, but you don't... it's better you don't buy the Rolls-Royce because your friends will be pissed off with you because they've got Minis and you've got a Rolls-Royce." So he deliberately did not flaunt his success.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah, that... that is quite tough. Um... well, people do that... they show their hand in terms of learning their success. I mean business people do that.

Malcolm: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Um, I didn't think that other people do that, but a lot of people don't show their success. I mean, it's not success, but something that I've had to learn is... basically I've... taking opportunity just like you... you have taken opportunity your whole life, I've taken opportunity all the time as much as I can. So, I used to travel alone since I was fairly young. Um, I used to... I don't know. I always used to do stuff. That's the thing. I didn't like to talk about the idea of doing the thing. I like to do the thing and then, you know, just have the story, so to say. And now, well, not now, but a couple of years ago, I used to have this problem with sharing those type of things cuz people were like, "Oh, yeah. Okay, so you did it. You did this and so on."

Malcolm: You have to be careful.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: Um, not to go around telling everyone what you're going to do.

Maximiliano: No.

Malcolm: Um, because people say, you know, it's always better for them to find out that you've done it rather than you go and say, "Well, you know, this time next year I'm going to be a millionaire." You know, it... but it's difficult to hold back your enthusiasm when you've got a project.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: Because you have to air that project. You have to tell people, "This is the project I want to work on." So you've... you have to be a salesman. Um, so in the right situation you have to present your project so you can brainstorm and explain a concept. That's okay within a group. But you have to be careful not to, when you're down the pub having a beer, start talking about what you're going to do or whatever. So the balance of your enthusiasm and where you want to be in life and everything else, you have to use some discretion on letting the story out or being like... I... I don't have many artist friends. Um, and there's a reason for that. I love working every day. And I find that if you have too many creative artist friends, they like to hang out and they like to talk, and talk doesn't produce work. And for me, I'm addicted to work.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: Because it reassures me so much. It reassures me. You know, I get up and I go, you know, there's a reason to get up out of bed. I can do something today with a piece of paper that's £2.50, some pencils, and my electric. I can create something at the end of the day. So, I'm addicted to that. Um, I get bored with talking to people and listening to people or going out for a drink and agreeing with people on a social level. Socially, yeah, I... small talk socially I've learned is you're very polite. You don't actually, in England in particular, want to know what that person really, you know, because you're looking over that person's shoulder to the next person to socialize. But socializing is quite a, you know, it's an empty sort of thing and and it doesn't...

Maximiliano: I think it's it's extremely negative.

Malcolm: So I got to say that there is two things about it. I saw a video of this young girl basically dissecting what is the concept of the craft, the thing that you do that basically burns everything away beyond that thing.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Yes.

Malcolm: Um, so the craft for you of course is...

Maximiliano: Yeah. It's a self-motivation, you know. You're working on something that only absorbs you completely. Only you understand it. It just... and the world can slip by and you're as happy as... you know, you're just so happy to...

Malcolm: The world can see a glimpse of it.

Maximiliano: Yes. You know, it's... nothing... it just... and that's why the process is so rewarding. Um, and to in the beginning as any creative person, yeah, you have to show what you're doing to get a reaction. Um, and so you're asking people for their reaction.

Malcolm: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Basically you're asking for them to pat you on the back and say that's a good thing, you know, carry on.

Malcolm: Well done. Well done.

Maximiliano: Well done. Well done. Um, and you know, that's okay because it builds up your confidence. After a while, your friends will say, "That's good." Other people will say, "Maybe I don't like... that's not for me." Then you realize that you shouldn't take on your friend's attitude or a stranger's attitude. You shouldn't believe anybody. Don't believe anyone what they say because either they're for you or they're not for you. But it doesn't matter. So I... I don't care. And that's why now there's a stack of my work there. And it will only get deeper and deeper. And I, you know, to me, they're like my journal and I'm in a fortunate position that I don't have to live by it or I don't have to try to exist by producing. So I'm learning and I don't have the... of having to show a gallery or...

Malcolm: What you... what you're working on or something. Yeah. You know.

Maximiliano: I'm guessing for you that has to be the most frustrating thing possible. Well, I... you know, I mean... marketing your products and...

Malcolm: I love to show my work occasionally and actually I like to give, you know, I like to give... not the big one, not these ones, but smaller ones. I like to give.

Maximiliano: Just hand them out.

Malcolm: Yeah, you know, because when I was in Hong Kong, each day I would do a small drawing and I have a stack of them which if it's someone's birthday, I would go through them and find one and then I would give it to that person as a birthday present or as a present or say thank you, something like that. Because they are like little exercises in keeping... because when I was in Hong Kong, I was working on projects all the time. So, I needed to release myself by doing a little...

Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean that's the thing when you have... when you're successful, when you have projects and you're literally project after project and there's no time for yourself, you're in an environment where you're dealing with deadlines.

Malcolm: Yeah. Deadlines are very good for an artist because they help you to understand that if that's the best idea, then go with the best idea. You don't have time to play around with it. You know there's... with anything creative there's a certain "let's brainstorm, let's figure this out," and then there's... we've got no more time left. Let's put it together. You know any production, film production or anything like that. You can brainstorm and work with the director up to a point.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: And then everything else is, okay, you've got the actors, you've designed the sets and locations, the costumes. So now you have to do a daily schedule and put it all together and make it work. So you know time limits for most artists are a good thing, but for most artists they don't realize how important the period to brainstorm and then to say no more. I'm not going to... like we were talking before... I'm not going to overcook this now.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: Enough's enough. This is my best idea for the moment. I could come back to it in five years' time and do another best idea like Van Gogh. I could do it again. I can do it again. But, you know, that's up to you. But if you've got to meet a deadline, you've got to meet that deadline with...

Maximiliano: God with his sunflowers. That's... yeah. Well, so tell us a little bit about your story now. So you... after you... so what's the timeline here? So...

Malcolm: Well, I was working in Bond Street as artistic director for an antique oriental antique gallery.

Maximiliano: Okay. We... I was put in curating exhibitions of oriental art. Blue and white ceramics, Hokusai prints, all kinds of stuff.

Malcolm: All right.

Maximiliano: And there...

Malcolm: How many years did you do that for?

Maximiliano: Oh, this was like three or four years I did... this is when I was like 18 or 19 years old.

Malcolm: Okay. Um, and I got into reproducing Chinese snuff bottle artwork. The Chinese had little snuff bottles and on the inside of the snuff bottle, they painted portraits and landscapes and things on the inside of the... like a little aspirin bottle. They painted back to front. So, I got into doing that. Um, but also copying and unfolding the design on paper, but the same size as a miniature.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: One of the collectors of Chinese snuff bottles was a lady who was the heir for the Avon cosmetic company in America. She used to come over and collect my drawings, give me some other little drawings, snuff bottles to copy, then I would do that. And so she used to take me... she used to stay at Claridge's Hotel. She used to take me out for dinner or something. Her son was Conrad Rooks and Conrad Rooks was the film director and he had made some odd films in the 60s and he used to get his money from his mother who used to finance the films. So he decided, because I was very close to his mother, that I would be a good thing because his mother kind of had a soft spot for me. Um, so he sort of said, "I'm working on my next film which is a film about a Buddha called Siddhartha. And so here's the script. Why don't you do the storyboard for the script?" So I said, "Well, fine. Okay." So he gave me this...

Maximiliano: Sorry. This is at what time? Like how old are you at this point?

Malcolm: Um, 20 or something maybe. No, 26, something like that.

Maximiliano: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. It's just to... just to understand like...

Malcolm: No more than... no, maybe... maybe 25, maybe less than that.

Maximiliano: Um, so...

Malcolm: ...around my age. Okay. Yes. Interesting. So he gave me the script.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: Now I'd worked on one or two little commercial things in England in... at the time in Chelsea with photographers and being art director for small things. But...

Maximiliano: Okay. So you did have experience...

Malcolm: Little, limited. But my experience was that I was in this gallery and this guy wanted me to do the storyboard. So he gave me a script. In two weeks I did the storyboard which is about 3,000 little drawings. A storyboard is like a comic book.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: You do a comic book with and you cut up the script and stick it on the...

Maximiliano: Is it exactly like a storyboard? It's like a comic.

Malcolm: So he came back from America and he had someone else who was going to be art director.

Maximiliano: Mhm.

Malcolm: And at the time that person was an American guy, young guy, and he was a real cool dude, hippie kind of cool dude. Um, and I was a little bit like... I was the Carnaby Street kind of a character.

Maximiliano: Oh, what?

Malcolm: Carnaby Street. What's that? Kings Road, Carnaby Street, 60s. Oh, fab. Oh, fab. And...

Maximiliano: But... but this guy was a real Jimi Hendrix-looking character.

Malcolm: Okay.

Maximiliano: And so I'd gone away and did the whole storyboard.

Malcolm: Uh, stayed with my mother, father. They fed me and I just did the whole thing. So when he came back, there was a meeting in the gallery and the guy that I thought was, you know, the Jimi Hendrix, the cool man, the dude... Conrad Rooks said, "Well, show me what you've got." Now, this guy was supposed to be the art director and he had about eight or nine little drawings. And so, you know, Conrad said, "Yeah, okay. Right. What have you got, Malcolm?" And I had like a wall of... a stack of stuff from the beginning to the end of the film.

Maximiliano: 3,000.

Malcolm: Oh, it was at least... drawings, you know, with the costumes, the jewelry, the locations, everything. And...

Maximiliano: I think... I think the experience... the experience to do that...

Malcolm: Yeah.

Maximiliano: ...came from the packaging, you know, it came from the tobacco factory.

Malcolm: It was... you don't like, you know...

Maximiliano: You don't know how.

Malcolm: Actually, I remember in the tobacco factory they had a time and motions man and they would stand behind you with a stopwatch.

Maximiliano: Oh, so you had to do...

Malcolm: And they would time you for each package that went by. So and they would say, then at the end of the day you can produce 450 packages, you know. They would time you, calculate it, and then they would tell you how many you had to do.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: Now the trick there was... and I was naive so I would just do it fast and show them how clever I was. The other guys there would say, "Slow down, Malcolm, slow down." I couldn't figure out why. And they were doing it as slow as they could. But anyway, so what happened with the script was I did the whole thing. Um, and so that conveyor belt time-and-motion thing paid off later on in life because I did the whole thing. I presented it to Conrad and he was just godsmacked...

Maximiliano: Amazed.

Malcolm: He looked and said, "You're coming to India with me."

Maximiliano: I said, "What?" 25... 25 years...

Malcolm: Coming to India with me. You're going to be art director for feature film. Now I... sort of... I didn't even have a passport. I had never been on an airplane.

Maximiliano: All right. Yeah.

Malcolm: Let alone first class.

Maximiliano: Wow.

Malcolm: And let alone... I'd never been... well, my mother and father had taken me to France and to Italy and places. But I'd never been on an airplane. So that was how I got my first introduction to go to India in '71. 1971.

Maximiliano: So you went to India. You were 26, 27.

Malcolm: No, actually not 26. 25.

Maximiliano: Probably 23.

Malcolm: Probably.

Maximiliano: And you were on a plane as the art director.

Malcolm: Well, on... I thought he was joking until the plane took off. I thought it was a joke.

Maximiliano: So you...

Malcolm: Until the plane took off, I did not believe that we were going anywhere.

Maximiliano: So 23 years old going on first class to be art director.

Malcolm: In those days, there was a bar upstairs on the plane. I don't know if you... but literally there was a spiral staircase and a bar upstairs and I sat upstairs on the first class and the director was sitting and I said, "Can I have the window seat?" He said, "Yeah, sure." So, I'm sitting by the window and I'm looking at this 747 plane...

Maximiliano: Oh, man.

Malcolm: ...which was so big and I just said, "It's not never going to take off."

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: "This is not going to take off." Okay.

Maximiliano: You cannot... I mean, even the plane can't take off.

Malcolm: Okay. Yeah. Like...

Maximiliano: And it rolled down the runway. It rolled down and rolled down. "It's not going to take off. They're going to stop and they're going to let me off. It's like Candid Camera or something."

Malcolm: When it took off, I was like, "We're going somewhere." That was the moment I realized we're going somewhere. And I kept on looking out the window and seeing the clouds go by and it was like, "This is the earth. I'm looking down at the earth, you know." It's... it's weird. The first time you jump into an airplane, you look down and you're like...

Maximiliano: "It's not going to happen." You're not gonna...

Malcolm: You're like, "No, no way. No way. It's not going to happen." But... and I sat there with him and he's an American and... first and he all traveled first class and, you know, he said, "Whatever... order whatever you like..." you know, "...what you want." And it was the first time that I was getting free drink, free food, free everything...

Maximiliano: Because you were an artist.

Malcolm: Yeah. I like... it's all free because I'm an artist and it's like, uh, you know, "Oh, let's stretch our legs, let's go up to the cocktail lounge and have a drink." And I'm... I'm an artist. What... what am I doing here? Basically, like, what's... yeah.

Maximiliano: And... and that was like ridiculous. My father had been in India for six years during the Second World War and he had been stationed in Bombay. It was called Bombay those days, not Mumbai now, but it's called Bombay. And so we were going to go to Bombay. So when we landed in Bombay, the doors... the door opened on the airplane and it was summertime and the heat came in like...

Malcolm: Yeah.

Maximiliano: ...any... like, it was like I walked down... you had to walk down the stairs steps, walk across the tarmac to go into this... the airport because it wasn't a fancy airport in those days. And actually, as soon as I stepped on the ground, I felt that I'd been there before, you know. I knew my father had spent six years, but I felt straight away at home or confident, etc., of being in India straight away. It was marvelous. And then India for me and Conrad Rooks was a great tutor, you know. He loved taking me and putting me into a situation as a guinea pig.

Malcolm: Yeah. Well, I feel... yeah. Um, yeah, I do... I do... I do get it where he's coming from, though. Like...

Maximiliano: Well, I was... we had to film part of the story of Buddha. We had... yeah, it's the same story, you know. It's trying to find enlightenment basically, right? And in order to find enlightenment in life, you have to be taken somewhere. You have to be like... Buddha's closest friend, Govinda, followed Buddha around everywhere. And there became this one point where Buddha said, "Govinda, don't follow me anymore. You're only following me. You're not getting anywhere in life. You're just following me. Go your own way." And I think actually that's very poignant. We do follow people. We do have our heroes. We do follow them up until a certain point and then we spread our wings and we are able...

Malcolm: Yeah.

Maximiliano: ...we have the confidence to be ourself. But we do have to, you know, have a mentor, someone that we... we want to try to aim for. And then at that point we decide, okay, we can now... this is the moment.

Malcolm: Yeah, I think it... if you don't have that in life... So I'm guessing you... sorry, if you don't have that...

Maximiliano: Well, I think that point comes to everybody, you know, a realization that you have followed that situation, that person, and now it's time for you to make your own way.

Malcolm: Yeah, definitely. So, I'm guessing... so you basically started and... well, finished this... as a... sorry, you finished it. You finished a job as a movie director.

Maximiliano: Yes. Well, art director in the movie.

Malcolm: Yes. And what happened next? What's... what was the next big thing in...

Maximiliano: Well, I went back to England. Um, actually I stayed six months after the film unit had finished. Columbia Films had paid for everything. So I stayed in a hotel for six months. Afterwards they said... the director said, "You might as well stay. It's all been paid for." So I stayed.

Malcolm: Why not? You know.

Maximiliano: In that six months, like towards the end, it was like four months, I was so bored with just staying around the pool in the hotel signing for stuff. I was so bored in Bombay. I decided to check myself out and go to the airport. I checked myself out, went to the airport. I stood in in the queue. I had a first-class return ticket open. I stood in the queue. I was about the third person from checking in. Yeah. And I thought to myself, "What am I doing? What am I... I'm going to go back to England. I've got another three months here." And I just turned around, got in the taxi, went back to my room and stayed for the rest of the time and then went back and... I went back to England and I was living in Chelsea. Um, and for about maybe six... less than six months... I was going to different parties and the owner of the Oberoi hotels in India, which were... there's two... there were two big hotels, the Taj group and the Oberoi group... the owner said, "Would you come back to India and paint a big picture in my new house?" So I said, "Yeah, sure." So he...

Malcolm: This comes from your philosophy of always saying yes to opportunity.

Maximiliano: Yes. And I said, "Well, yes sure, just send me a ticket and I'll come along." And in like a week there was an open ticket to come to Delhi to paint in this house.

Malcolm: It sounds so surreal if... if...

Maximiliano: Well, it... so I was like kind of... was... "I'm not doing much next week. I'll go to India." So I checked in and I went to India, turned up at the hotel, which was the same hotel that I'd stayed in when I was making... as art director in the film. So I knew the hotel and... and I checked in and they said, "Oh, Mr. Oberoi is away at the moment. He'll be back." He said, "Just make yourself comfortable." So I said, "Oh, okay." So I had... that... I had a suite there. There's a swimming pool, everything else. And two months goes by. And I asked the clerks at the desk, the reception, "Is Mr. Oberoi coming back? You know, I'm here. Does he know I'm here?" because I'm signing for food and drink and I'm thinking, you know, um I'm feeling guilty.

Malcolm: Said, well, he'll be back in another month or something like that, you know.

Maximiliano: So, um... he came back and apologized for being up in Srinagar and said, "Okay. Um, and this is the project," and introduced me to the project which took three years to do. He hadn't started to build the house.

Malcolm: Okay.

Maximiliano: And the story there was he took me after three months of living without knowing... put me... he one day he said, "Malcolm, we'll go into... go to see the house now. Get in the car, let's go." And so we go to this... outside of Delhi... air-conditioned car and everything else... we get... step outside the... middle of summer in Delhi. It's sweltingly hot and dry and dusty. "And Malcolm, this is where I'm going to build the house. You see now, if you look that way, that's where the lounge will be there. And your wall to paint is here. You're just looking at it. Just looking at..." Like you can help me design the house. So you became an architect basically as well.

Malcolm: I want a swim. I want a pool. Then I want a water fountain, a thing dropping down, and a domed glass. And so then it... it was three years living and working and being with Mr. Oberoi and I became great friends and in that time I became part of the Delhi social scene and I met people and I became friends with people like Indira Gandhi, the prime minister, and Rajiv Gandhi, her son, who became prime minister. Rajiv used to come to my house, pick me up and take me out for... before he was prime minister and everything else.

Maximiliano: Okay, so you're very well known in the high circle of India then.

Malcolm: In those days, the like the Tata family...

Maximiliano: Tata.

Malcolm: ...yeah, they... the industrialist...

Maximiliano: Yeah, I know.

Malcolm: ...um, it was very much a very inner circle which was very, you know, so I was like the artist's flavor of the month and so I did some very strange things. Um, of course I got caught pajamas and Indian, and this was a time when the Beatles had just been to India.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: And everything else. Actually, when I... when I did the film then the Beatles were kind of around about that time in Rishikesh with the Maharishi.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: And I was filming in Rishikesh with long... and I had this little house on the banks of the river Ganges and there's a bridge that goes across and the Beatles would have to go across to go to the ashram at the other end and everything else. I never met them and I always thought that little bridge is only like three feet wide. But I did step in the step... in the footsteps of...

Maximiliano: Which was inspiring, I'm sure. So, you basically went on a... on a spree of just starting painting walls and murals and so on.

Malcolm: Well, yes. Um...

Maximiliano: For how many years did you do that?

Malcolm: Um, I did the Oberoi house then. At the same time I was single. Um, I was also painting pen-and-ink drawings of the ruins in Delhi, the Mughal temples and ruins in Delhi. And I was... because I was introduced to all of the diplomats and people and I went to lots of diplomatic parties, I think I was selling my pen-and-ink sepia wash drawings to all the diplomats.

Maximiliano: M...

Malcolm: So it was like connections going on, an Englishman painting the ruins of Delhi, which was quite... they were... they were representative drawings, watercolor, sepia drawing. You can't go wrong with drawing pen-and-ink and sepia wash.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: You can't go wrong. I mean, it's like looks brilliant. Um, and so I was selling before I'd even done the painting. You know, the diplomats were either diplomats were coming or they were going. So, "Oh, you must have a painting, you know, when you arrive or you're leaving, you must buy one of these paintings from Malcolm." The other artist there was M.F. Husain. Now, Husain was the dog's bollocks. I mean, he was the man. He was the Indian guy in Delhi.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: He looked like Moses. He was very tall, always in white kurta pajama, white hair, long white beard.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: And he was the man. And between him and me, I mean, I was just like the foreigner. And I think I irritated him...

Maximiliano: Of course.

Malcolm: ...a lot. Especially because I knew Indira Gandhi.

Maximiliano: Oh, okay.

Malcolm: And Rajiv at one time commissioned me to paint a small Ganesh, you know, Mughal-like miniature of Ganesh to give to Indira Gandhi for a birthday present.

Maximiliano: Oh.

Malcolm: And I gave that. But at the birthday party, M.F. Husain was there and he was annoyed that I...

Maximiliano: Yeah, they they asked you and not him, I'm guessing. Um, but there you go. That's...

Malcolm: And then you started doing projects. So, after... after living in India for 40 years...

Maximiliano: I was living... no, for 10 years.

Malcolm: Oh, 10 years. Um, I was living in... I had a studio in Delhi and the friend that I'd worked for in England in Bond Street in the gallery was then living in Hong Kong and he suggested that the interior designer for the Shangri-La Hotel, Kowloon side, should come and see me in Delhi because they were wanting to paint... wanting to do two very big lobby paintings in the lobby of the hotel. And so he came to visit me. Now his name is Don Ashton. Don Ashton was an art director.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: Uh, one of his most famous films was Bridge on the River Kwai.

Maximiliano: All right. Yeah.

Malcolm: He art directed that plus lots of others. And then he... turn... he became interior designer. So he was designing hotel lobbies and hotel very, you know, way up market. He came to visit me and said, "Come to... I'll give you a ticket, come to Hong Kong and the hotel is under construction and see if you come up with an idea." So I came, it was just before Christmas in '71...

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: No, '81. 1981.

Maximiliano: Mhm.

Malcolm: And I came just before Christmas, spent two weeks, did two little miniature versions of what should be, left it with him, and two weeks later I got a telegram. In those days, you used to get a telegram. It was pink typed out. Um, ticket available. Come immediately, blah, blah, blah. Stop. You know, like... and so I got that. Wow, okay. Come immediately. So I did. And so you went there and painted.

Maximiliano: I did. It took me six months to do those two big paintings which are still there. Everyone in Hong Kong thought that it was a Chinese person that had painted them because they're... I don't know... you can see them online. They're big Shangri-La Palace...

Malcolm: Let me... let me just search it up just to kind of know what we're talking about. Uh, how is it called again?

Maximiliano: It's the Shangri-La Hotel, Kowloon.

Malcolm: Okay. So we just seen the the picture and...

Maximiliano: Okay. Well, so I painted the two big paintings. They... they asked... they were building the hotel, so I could... I had to build them on the mezzanine floor.

Malcolm: Okay.

Maximiliano: While they were building the hotel.

Malcolm: So I had to paint them while they were building the hotel.

Maximiliano: That's... that's a difficult one, I'm guessing.

Malcolm: Yes. They... they enclosed the area and made a studio inside, an air-conditioned studio inside the lobby. And so I hadn't done anything that size which had to...

Maximiliano: How many meters was it again?

Malcolm: Well, I think this must have been... well, it was like two stories high by about 3 meters high. I think maybe one, two, three...

Maximiliano: Sorry.

Malcolm: Maybe about five or six meters, six meters.

Maximiliano: Five or six. Yeah. Sorry.

Malcolm: Um, so they asked me, "Obviously you've done this before. How do we go about this? Because we're on the mezzanine floor and we're going to have to take the painting down and then across and then put it up." So I said, "Okay, first we have to make a metal frame," which they made a metal frame. Then I said, "You have to get marine ply and make a sandwich and do it in a brick formation." So it makes a brick. So it's a sandwiched so it won't move and everything else. Then I will paint them flat. So we have to make a trolley that goes up and down on wheels over the painting because it's an oil painting and the oil doesn't dry fast. So I need to roll up and down over it, you know, just a few inches above it and paint. And I did that on both of them. So I had... so we had to do that trolley system laying flat on cushions and painting. Then when that was complete, there had to be a time when it needed to dry because we had like eight or nine air conditioners in this kind of area running 24 hours a day to try and dry the thing because I put the initial background on with a palette knife and it was major thick oil paint. I bought all of the oil paint, Winsor & Newton oil paint in Hong Kong to do this... to do that project. There was only two shops in Hong Kong and I bought all of their stock totally. Anyhow...

Maximiliano: Well, they did... well, I'm sure.

Malcolm: Well, after six months, I'd finished the work. The... the thing was dry enough. And we moved it by crane down from the mezzanine floor across the lobby. And then by cranes we lifted it up. And that point where we were lifting it up obviously, you know, running around very sort of skeptical, very worried, the owners are... might not like it and...

Maximiliano: No, no. They... well, it's the first time you see it up.

Malcolm: Yeah. So it's the first time you can walk away to the other end of the lobby and see the impact of it, which is an interesting aspect. Um, when I... I was scenery painting in the theater, you judged the scenery from the back row of the theater.

Maximiliano: Yeah, of course.

Malcolm: Um, and so I... I did some... I worked in the London Palladium scenery painting for a little while and that was my first kind of job as what I thought was an artist in a way. And I remember the art director for the scenery department in the London Palladium... in those days they used to paint the backdrops. They don't anymore, they project, but they used to paint the backdrops and you go in through a back door at the back of Carnaby Street to the London Palladium. And one day I was always in Carnaby Street. One day that little green door was open a bit and I opened it and then I could see the studio for the London Palladium where they did all the backdrops and I edged my way in. It was like Alice in Wonderland. And I bumped up against some guy in a brown overall and he was the art director for the... and I said... you know, well, I want to work here. And he said, "No, we... you know, we don't... you don't have any degrees, you know." And I said... and I was walking out and I was... "I don't have any degrees. Yeah, you're right. I don't have any degrees." And then I turned around and I said, "I'll work for nothing." And he said, "You can start next week."

Maximiliano: Oh, fab.

Malcolm: And then for a solid two months, I traveled backwards and forwards. Um, and my mother gave me the money to come backwards and forwards. Um, and... she kind of paid for my, you know, job until... so they did pay me.

Maximiliano: That's good.

Malcolm: Um...

Maximiliano: Well, so you finished this hotel and then you started... what did you do after?

Malcolm: Well, the... I finished the hotel, but while I was... while I was working on the hotel, the hotel PR department had nothing to... nothing to PR about apart from this artist that was painting these wonderful big paintings. Okay. So they put... they would put all their resources into publicizing this artist that was painting while the building was being built. So I got a lot of public attention in... yes. And of course it was a big success and it's still there now. And they have made wine labels out of the paintings and everything else... everything, scarves and gift items and just...

Maximiliano: Do you get a commission out of that?

Malcolm: If I would have got a 1% commission for anyone... everyone that had taken a picture in front of the painting, yeah, I would... it wouldn't, you know, I would've been rich. But I didn't... at least. Yeah. Um... but that publicity alone...

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: ...gave me projects all over Asia.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: And... um, you know, and then you went on a running spree, just basically doing all of them...

Maximiliano: Doing projects... uh, I did projects for the Hong Kong government which was English those time, for the head... the police department, for the old Kai Tak airport, the Hong Kong airport. I did the lobby for the airport paintings, stuff then. I mean, congrats... all kinds of congratulations, other, you know, projects besides traveling all around Asia doing projects. Um...

Malcolm: So... and when did you come back to England?

Maximiliano: I came back only four years ago.

Malcolm: Only four years ago. Yeah. Um, I was, you know, four years ago I was still in Hong Kong painting and everything else. Um, and in four years ago was like the beginning of the end of like... there were restaurants and bars and everything. But it slowly... well, more than four... four years ago I was... handover was 1997.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: But it was a slow process of... the foreigners slowly... less and less foreigners there. So there was less and less opportunity and projects going on. Um, so four years ago it was the end of that kind of thing and I decided I would come back to England. My daughter lives here and she is a successful hat designer, a millionaire.

Maximiliano: Sorry. Sorry. What?

Malcolm: My daughter is a hat...

Maximiliano: Yeah, a millionaire hat designer.

Malcolm: A mill... milliner.

Maximiliano: A milliner. Is that... is that how you call...

Malcolm: A hat designer, really?

Maximiliano: Yes. Yes. Um, and she does...

Malcolm: I didn't even know that.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: Um, she does hat designs for not only the royal family, but...

Maximiliano: Oh my goodness. Okay.

Malcolm: ...Beyoncé and Lady Gaga and...

Maximiliano: Oh, right.

Malcolm: ...whatever. She's in London, so we might... but I will, if you want her name, her number, her thing, you can follow up on that.

Maximiliano: I would. Yeah, I would love to have her on the podcast. Yeah.

Malcolm: She has her own label and everything.

Maximiliano: Oh my goodness, that's great. So, um, I came back really to just... it was time to come back and to... you know, to get to know my... I've only got one daughter, so to get to know her and her husband. Um, and to... to come back to England and to... to feel, you know, why not, you know, um, and... and why Bristol? Well, I... I stayed with my daughter for two years trying to reunite.

Malcolm: Well, yeah. Um, and that's... that was great. But then I... and I couldn't... I wasn't happy comfortable in London.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Well,

Malcolm: And I had some friends here, so I came to visit and pretty much the first or second day I came to visit my friends here, I decided I could live here. So then I started looking for a place straight away, instantaneously. Um, and you know, I found this place which I love it because it's... it's right in the middle of town. Um, it's a lovely old building. It's as... it's probably the smallest place I've ever lived in in my life. But it... I'm... I'm... it's the happiest because I... you know, artists need...

Maximiliano: I don't think it's it's small, but yeah. I mean...

Malcolm: Oh, yeah. It definitely... I mean, I've had houses with swimming pools on the roof and stuff, but this... this is... um, it's lovely because you've got... I've got my little living space and I've got my studio and I'm never late for work.

Maximiliano: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm: You know, and that's like when we were talking earlier about how... what is important in the way you live your life? Well, there's not a lot of things that sustain you and keep you happy in life. I don't cook. I mean, I've got a toaster and a frying pan.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: And...

Maximiliano: That's... that's...

Malcolm: And coffee.

Maximiliano: And coffee. Okay. I've never smoked in my life.

Malcolm: Okay.

Maximiliano: Although I have worked in a cigarette factory, I've never smoked in my life. Um, and I've owned my own restaurant and bar, but I, you know, I'm not an alcoholic. I don't drink. I like drinking. I like, but these days I don't... I could have a bottle of whiskey and it could be there for a long time. I used to judge the month on where the line of the whiskey was. So it was halfway down, like now that... what that decanter is halfway down, so I know it's halfway...

Malcolm: Okay.

Maximiliano: ...uh through the month. But a sip occasionally just gives me the knowing when the end of the month is, that... that's okay. And if anyone comes around they're... they're welcome to go for it. So I... it doesn't... doesn't bother me. But you know, there's only a few things once you know what fulfills you, what gives you the pleasure in life. There's only a few things that you need to hold on to. Um, because at the end of the day, we're all on our own. You know, we're on our own. We have partners and things, but our sensation, our feelings, our experiences are... most people keep them within and you live your life and... and we all ask ourselves, like, "Oh, you know, I wonder if... if I did something, if I did that, would I have gone there or..." But life is like a little... you're like a little... it's... you're being bounced around from one to the other and... and you... if you play the game, it's okay. If you stop playing the game, you don't get... it's very easy for people to forget people, you know. You... people can be forgotten, especially if you're... if you're... yeah, if you're freelance, it's easy for people to forget that you're freelance and, "Oh, you don't do it anymore."

Malcolm: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Um, so that's why for freelance people it's important to let people know what you are doing, you know. Um, so, ah, yeah, I've just finished that sign. I'm doing this. Let people know what you're doing because otherwise you're only as relevant as your last project, you know.

Malcolm: Yeah, you're only the news for your last project.

Maximiliano: That is a very good actual...

Malcolm: You've got to let people know even if you don't get on well with people or even if you don't want to... just drop a line, you know, and so people will say, "What are you doing?" So, you got to tell them what you're doing. You don't have to show them what you're doing, but you've got to tell them, "Well, I'm working on this project now," so they know. So, like... like Nick, that introduced you to me. Um, Nick kind of... I like Nick. I've followed Nick because he likes the creative lifestyle and I... I like people like that, you know. They are our connection. They connect. And creative people invariably do not connect with the right people. They... they kind of... and I know that people, creative people, have to get up off their ass sometimes and talk to people and say, "This is what I'm doing." You know, they... they have to put forward their kind of enthusiasm is needed. Um, because if you don't... and that's one thing probably that I could end with is enthusiasm. You have to let people know that you're enthusiastic with whatever the idea is.

Maximiliano: Yes, that's... well, I... I got to say I do have a little bit of a background on sales and that's the major component for a sale. The major component is a transfer of energy and unless you're selling insurance, which... you bloody bastards. Okay. Never understand insurance like insurance. Well, I can't understand that, but I'm sure that it works.

Malcolm: It... I mean, it does work in specific conditions. I... I don't know. It's complicated, but anyway.

Maximiliano: So, the major component of a sale is a positive transfer of emotion. Nothing else. So, if you're showing that you're excited and so on, you're... you're good. You're amazing. I got many great friends that... well, now have sales businesses and so on. So...

Malcolm: Several friends of mine have come along and showed me how to... how to approach it, how to talk somebody into buying a painting, you know, to talk them into a corner so they have to buy the painting. And I can't do it. I don't... and I've been with one or two people who are very good at talking somebody into buying something that they took them down a passageway that in the end the person can't say no. I... and I... it's amazing, but I can't do that. I sort of...

Maximiliano: It's a great thing to... it's a great skill, but if...

Malcolm: Oh, it's unbelievable. But and even if you don't want it, you'll buy it because you've... you've kind of put yourself in that corner where you can't say no. Um, which is amazing. But I can't... u... I can't do that. Most of the time it's just... you show... if somebody likes what you do, they... they want it, you know, straight away. I want this is because creating something from an artist's point of view... that's sort of stage two. Stage one is the artist creates something and then you've got the physical piece there. Then stage three is somebody comes along and looks at it and says, "Oh, I... I like that picture." Um, and they see something in it that's not in it, that you didn't put in it.

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: You know, they see something else in it completely different because it's... it's a third degree of... like that was my idea, this is what I put down and now that person sees something else in it. And that's why my daughter told me, "Papa, don't title anything because you... when you put a title on something, people look at the title, then try and assimilate the title with the image." Right.

Maximiliano: So you don't put titles.

Malcolm: I only on the Bristol collection that I've just started to do. I've put a title because it's a place in Bristol somewhere. So I put the place or the... whatever it is.

Maximiliano: Right. Tell us a little bit about this painting just to... just to wrap it.

Malcolm: Well, I thought I'm living in Bristol and I thought I will do Bristol images of Bristol. And... so like this is the little train that's on the M Shed side. It goes up and down. And to me... so I'm just doing little postcard images of places, buildings, places, boats, kind of things like that. I've never... well, no, I... when I was in India I did ruins of Delhi. When I was in Hong Kong I've done drawings of Hong Kong. So I guess here I'm doing images of Bristol. Bristol is a wonderful place because you have... you've got the harbor, the water, the hills, the old buildings, the eccentric kind of landscape. So there's a lot here in terms of... and you can... well, because I live in the center of Bristol, I can literally walk everywhere, everywhere, and enjoy being like an observer. But you... you know, it's a wonderful... Bristol's... I just love it, the contrast and the people. People are great, you know. They're... they're kind of really... and and I'm so fortunate to live in this old building which has character and it's in the old... old city part of Bristol. Mhm. And you know, sometimes you find the location and you're happy with that location. You're happy with... and it's... it's like a... you feel so comfortable. Um, there's no harassment. There's no... for instance, this street at nighttime becomes like Mardi Gras. It's so busy. It's noisy, busy, busy. But during the daytime, there's no traffic. There's nobody here. Yeah.

Maximiliano: I used to work nearby. So...

Malcolm: But night time it's... it's incredibly busy. But I don't mind that because I work at night. So I hear all the shouting and everything because I work at night and I sleep pretty much up until 12:00. So, to finalize a podcast, tell us about this particular painting.

Maximiliano: Um, it's a very simple approach. It's... on paper which is cold press. Mhm. I first of all do a pencil drawing. So this is 8B pencil. So I do this as a pencil drawing completely, totally shade it in as pencil. Then I decide where to put the color. So on a very limited area I... I place the color in. So then it becomes complete. Right. Okay. Interesting. Sorry, we were having trouble with your mic. All good. Yeah. Perfect. And it's... a... kind of a... every artist has a process that they refine and then the process is the skeleton that they can just put things into. Yeah. You know, and so to me the process is the thing which I enjoy when I'm rendering this sort of this work. The subject matter, I just grab it and make the subject matter. I just take it from... doesn't matter the subject matter, you know, you'll find lots of artists, they try and choose a particular subject. To me, just grab a subject, doesn't matter, who cares? And then... and then work on it. Right? Doesn't matter, bowl of fruit... can... you know, I realized that the subject matter is not the most important thing. It's not the crucial... it's not the important thing. It's... it's the... from a selfish point of view, it's producing the work, thinking it out and producing it. And from a point of view of art lovers, it's the kind of how you translate that subject into a formula.

Malcolm: Perfect. Malcolm, thank you very much for being on the podcast.

Maximiliano: You're most welcome.

Malcolm: I've really appreciated it. Uh, I think it gives me another perspective on what an artist looks like. Just like you... just like you had this story of you going to the...

Maximiliano: You got to know, like for instance, just very quickly, a dancer, a ballerina would look like a ballerina.

Malcolm: Exactly. An athlete will look like an athlete. And...

Maximiliano: I know, I know, I know. A poet, a poet will look like a poet.

Malcolm: Yeah.

Maximiliano: Um...

Malcolm: Yes.

Maximiliano: You know, a... a technical geek will look like a technical geek. Um, so that's not being derogatory in any way.

Malcolm: No, no, no, not at all. No. It's just... well, people tend to look like what they do and what they... also tend to look like their pets.

Maximiliano: That's... that's also a fair thing. Um, so yeah, thank you very much once again for being on this podcast. I've really appreciated the conversation.

Malcolm: Pleasure. Um, and for everybody watching, thanks once again for being on this podcast. Uh, and please follow us on all social media and platforms. Um, do you have any platforms where they can follow you up on?

Maximiliano: Um, I do have Facebook.

Malcolm: Okay.

Maximiliano: Facebook. And... and what would your name on Instagram?

Malcolm: On Facebook, it's Malcolm Golding Art or Malcolm Golding Open Studio.

Maximiliano: Okay.

Malcolm: And um, I guess you... you just look at Instagram. That would be Malcolm Golding on the Instagram, right?

Maximiliano: Yeah.

Malcolm: So it's easy to find, I think.

Maximiliano: Perfect.

Malcolm: I update my Facebook with only project-like images, projects. I don't update it with what food... what food I'm eating or anything else. It's just the latest picture I've done. I take a picture and I send that out. And the Instagram is...

Maximiliano: A little bit of everything?

Malcolm: No, no, it's just projects, like pictures of the projects like that.

Maximiliano: Okay. So, okay. That's actually quite good because I feel people want to know what's actually the project instead of like...

Malcolm: ...people's cup of tea.

Maximiliano: Yeah, that's true. Well, thank you once again for everybody listening and see you next week. Bye. Take care.