Kenneth De Leon: Full Podcast Transcript

Host: Maximiliano Fabres

Guest: Kenneth De Leon Location: Bristol, UK

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvVumLnT-W8&t=2s Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1KANTiOdWB9Q5TJH6YNevH?si=ccdec62358964966

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We are trapped in a narrow concept of causality. Tracking isolated actions rather than the invisible webs of relations that define our organizations. True systemic change requires a shift of mind from seeing parts to seeing the whole. moving from reactive problem solving to a deeper reflexive understanding of how our inner values conflict with the institutional structures we are trying to transform. Welcome to Beyond the Horizon podcast, the podcast for current and future leaders. Every episode we explore a different field of knowledge, not to collect facts, but to uncover mental models experts use to understand the world. How do they make decisions? What counts as evidence? How do they reason through uncertainty? And what can leaders learn from the ways they think? This extract you just heard comes from my research into this week's discipline. How to make decisions in different structures. Today we're exploring the mental models behind that worldview and what that can teach us from leadership decision making and navigating complexity. My guest today is Kenneth DeLeon.

Maximiliano Fabres: Hi. a uh master's in physics and

Kenneth De Leon: Inovation

Maximiliano Fabres: innovation. You know, you know what's happening? I I always get the pronunciation right, everything right about the name. I don't know why I always confuse the title.

Kenneth De Leon: It's fine. It's absolutely fine.

Maximiliano Fabres: I'm so sorry.

Kenneth De Leon: No, don't be.

Maximiliano Fabres: Oh, Ken, thank you very much for coming. In this episode, we are literally going to uh define basically what do you do and why is it important for everybody who's watching. So, let's start with what is the system that you're operating in. All right. You served as a sustainable champion uh at Bristol University, didn't you? Uh can you tell us a little about about that role?

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. So, um the sustainability champion um role at the University of Bristol was an initiative created by the student union um to try and help the university become more sustainable and contribute to their um net zero goal um which I can't remember when because sorry just to um uh caveat this I went to uni three years ago. Um, so this is about something that I did three years ago, but I think it's still very um interesting to know about. Um, but essentially um my manager at the time, she's very amazing um, incredible person. um she recruited I believe 17 other um student champions um across different um departments in the university. So my I was um the champion for physics for the physics department and the aim of the role is to basically try and embed sustainability into the curriculum or how to help the department be more sustainable. Whatever that means.

Maximiliano Fabres: Whatever that means.

Kenneth De Leon: Okay. We'll go we'll go into that then.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. What does that mean?

Maximiliano Fabres: Well, this is the thing. Sustainability.

What did you do like

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's I think it's important to address that sustainability is a very big umbrella term.

Kenneth De Leon: I know. Yeah. It's huge. I started investigating and I didn't know. I was like, "What the hell is this?"

Maximiliano Fabres: It and it it's a very big umbrella term, but also it means a lot of it means something different to who you are um and what field of study your background is in. Um so for me in physics I saw a real I saw a pattern where students weren't able to or weren't really aware of what the department were doing in terms of helping with sustainability. So, um I tried to um I spoke with a lot of the lecturers and the people who created the um the curriculum or who were in charge of final year projects and basically said well a lot of the projects have a link to sustainability why aren't we highlighting that so then the student who do those projects or people who look through those projects can think okay this is my impact that I'm making on the world around Oh, that's actually quite good. Yeah.

Kenneth De Leon: So, that's that's what I did. I basically went through um the list of final year projects for um bachelors and masters students

Maximiliano Fabres: and basically tried to make a key um to say okay this is what sustain this is this um project has a direct link to sustainability

Kenneth De Leon: and I think it's hard because like for example um going with the fact that sustainability is an umbrella term but um there were uh topics that looked at semiconductors and like how um how that can make systems more efficient meaning we

Maximiliano Fabres: waste less energy.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. So that's a very direct

Maximiliano Fabres: um but then indirect um projects can sometimes be um like looking at medical devices and how that can help operations in hospitals or help diagnosing that which means in that medical field there's less time and less um wasted resource which can go elsewhere. if that makes sense. So again, that's like an indirect

Kenneth De Leon: Oh, like the the uh circular economy type of thing, something similar.

Maximiliano Fabres: Not not exactly. It's so like for example um

Kenneth De Leon: the wastage of one is the materials for the other one.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. Yeah. So instead of instead of spending time um looking and diagnosing this one particular um patient

Kenneth De Leon: um that wasted time can go into like more research into beating cancer or um looking at how to streamline patient um patients going into a hospital something like that. So like that can be an that could be an example of indirect impact on sustainability. So let me ask you this a little bit more straight then.

Maximiliano Fabres: Um at at like at a fundamental level what is that the role of sustainability champion is like why does it exist?

Kenneth De Leon: So the reason why it exists, I think it's for people who want to make a change in a warming world. Um, and that can be big changes or that can be small changes. I think and I think we'll talk about this later but um the role exists so that students can have a focus and in their own department rather than having to think of okay let's look at the wider picture for the entire university landscape

Maximiliano Fabres: because that in itself is quite a very hard um landscape to make an impact on.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. There's different buildings, different sections.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. Well, it's a study program at the end of the day and it does develop new technology and new stuff and new investigations which require a lot of stuff.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. And I think it's basically trying to give students an opportunity to um lead with create passion projects. M

Maximiliano Fabres: um so if you if someone is interested in sustainability then they can take take that whatever that means to them and turn that into something fruitful that has that has an impact in w within the role that they've that within that sustainability champion role then so let me understand this then this is sustainability department so to say and then from that each sorry each department.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: Oh, that that was very badly explained, but can you tell me that?

Kenneth De Leon: Yes. So, how it's structured is you've got the student union.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah.

Kenneth De Leon: Um they hire different students from each different um university department.

Maximiliano Fabres: Mhm.

Kenneth De Leon: Or that study that studies in that department. Um but the the student union also collaborates with the University of Bristol's sustainability um department as well.

Maximiliano Fabres: Okay. I see.

Kenneth De Leon: So you've got two bodies

Maximiliano Fabres: and then the champions are

Kenneth De Leon: champions answer to the student union

Maximiliano Fabres: to the student union only and the per department in the university.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah,

Maximiliano Fabres: I see. Okay. So then how do this I know we just went a little bit about it but how do this constraints really help you then?

Kenneth De Leon: So sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't. So how it's favorable? It's favorable in the sense that it gives so for me for my personal lived experience it helped me look at just the impact I can make on the physics department.

Maximiliano Fabres: Mhm.

Kenneth De Leon: So for example final year projects making those see helping students see what impact they have.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah I think that that was a good call.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: Well done for you that one. Thanks. Um, and then I think utilizing um I don't know like it the the thing is with this role the the best thing about the role is that whoever is that champion makes into whatever they want it to be. So for me like okay so I did that project. So the second project I did was actually trying to I think it's a it was to um build on the final year project. So I asked students um what their current year students

Kenneth De Leon: what their projects were about if I could use their work to like display it in like a silent gallery um just set up in the in the building. But I said it's open for anyone and everyone to come see. So, I set up um in the corridor just like loads of whiteboards everywhere with different um final year projects and then some post-it notes about like how how these projects make people feel like what was the impact it had on them? What did they learn?

Maximiliano Fabres: That is so good.

Kenneth De Leon: And we had another whiteboard where they can put all of their findings.

Maximiliano Fabres: Um

Kenneth De Leon: yo, that's great. Like I really love that one.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. And it was in partnership with the um the physics department because I asked I asked them, hey, this is what I want to do.

Kenneth De Leon: And they said, well, we're actually doing a a green week as well, so your project will fit very well into what we're doing.

Maximiliano Fabres: So, you can take one day out, we'll do

Kenneth De Leon: the other days, and you can help us out with that. And I said, yeah, cool. Sign me up. Um, and so because the I had the backing of the department, I had I was able to um like put out put out the word to not just physics but to other schools.

Maximiliano Fabres: I because there's there's only a couple of us, a handful of us um sustainability champions, we try and um encourage to go to each other's events or or each other's um like presentations or something like that. So I had people um come in from who weren't physics but that's the point because the the impact I wanted to make is that what um what will they learn from this? Will this inspire them to think more broadly more outside of their um outside of the degree that they're studying? or is it just can they use that to think about how does my um how does the subject I'm studying have an impact on these other projects around um that people are doing. So you basically what I'm hearing this is this is what I'm hearing.

Kenneth De Leon: Uh you were trying to basically make them champions in their own way.

Maximiliano Fabres: Mhm.

Kenneth De Leon: So that they would learn okay my investigation, my development, my action has this consequences

Maximiliano Fabres: pretty much. Yeah.

Kenneth De Leon: That that is great. That that's that's so good. That's so good. Basically, you took over the role and you were just like, "Okay, you got to

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah, pretty much. And I think that's that's what I wanted to that was what what I wanted my role to be.

Kenneth De Leon: I think that creates a bigger change. There's a bigger impact.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah.

Kenneth De Leon: Because it has a bigger impact on Well, it has more people involved in it.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much. And I think um another project I was really happy about, so I've got those two. And then um another one I I was really happy that um it's still carrying on is there's a book swap happening. Um I figured that that was still happening.

Kenneth De Leon: I I heard books,

Maximiliano Fabres: physics books.

Kenneth De Leon: I actually I got a book on on different types of materials here. Like I read anything.

Maximiliano Fabres: Fair enough. As long as it's a book, I'm good with it.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. Consume knowledge.

Maximiliano Fabres: Um, but it was like the reason why I set up the book swap is because well, if you're a new person coming into you're in brand new, fresher or first year, um, and you've got a reading list, where are you going to find the books? Do you want to buy them retail price? Absolutely not.

Kenneth De Leon: Not really.

Maximiliano Fabres: No, you don't want to. So

Kenneth De Leon: I mean,

Maximiliano Fabres: but you want to you you want to but then as a final year student or a third year or a second year, you don't want to use you don't need your books anymore because you've got a different reading list.

Kenneth De Leon: So why don't donate it to the first years.

Maximiliano Fabres: So then when I came back to um the department I think last year just as a visit um just as a drop in just to say hi, I noticed that the book swap is still going. So I'm actually quite happy about that. That's good. That's good.

Kenneth De Leon: But then to answer, so that's like the good part about the role.

Maximiliano Fabres: What is the bad part

Kenneth De Leon: constraints about it?

Maximiliano Fabres: So there there were a lot of constraints.

Kenneth De Leon: For starters, it the role was only for that year.

Maximiliano Fabres: Um.

Kenneth De Leon: Oh, one year pressure. Damn. All right.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. So I think because I was in my final year, I felt a little bit of pressure, but there were other students, other champions who were there, who were in their second year.

Kenneth De Leon: Mhm.

Maximiliano Fabres: They potentially could have I think I think some of them did. They continued to be champions the following year. In 2025, so I was a champion in 2024.

Kenneth De Leon: Was that a possibility or

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah, it is a possibility. The only caveat is you have to be a student.

Kenneth De Leon: Oh, okay. And you were in Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah.

Kenneth De Leon: And then I think um

Maximiliano Fabres: awful timing.

Kenneth De Leon: Well,

Maximiliano Fabres: and and but that but that's the nature of these things, right? Um so I I took the opportunity and did what I did what I did with it. Um but the other thing is that um you have to work certain amount of hours because obviously it's a it's a paid role.

Kenneth De Leon: Mh.

Maximiliano Fabres: um which means that there's a budget for um what you do in the time as as a champion. Um and like if you go over that budget then you know then you can't work if so let's say you work like I don't know if I remember correctly it's 18 hours

Kenneth De Leon: if that or or 12 hours in a week that you can work and then you just log it and that's on average. So, sometimes you'll be working, well, I worked a 20 or 24-hour week because I needed to help organize a lot of things.

Maximiliano Fabres: Um,

Kenneth De Leon: and you're a little bit of a psycho on that.

Maximiliano Fabres: Let's not talk about that.

Kenneth De Leon: By the way, we we used to work together, so that's why I just know he works his ass off, no matter how small the detail.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. Let's not talk about myself filling up time.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: Not Not now. just not that. Okay.

Kenneth De Leon: Maybe later in the podcast.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. Well, we'll have it later. Don't worry. Don't worry about that one. You're right.

Kenneth De Leon: Um but other weeks I only worked one hour or two hours because I had my degree to go to still do.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah.

Kenneth De Leon: Um, so with that constraint, like if I had this job in it, like just that on its own,

Maximiliano Fabres: full-time job,

Kenneth De Leon: as a full-time job, maybe that could have been something better

Maximiliano Fabres: or maybe I could have made something more impactful.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah, makes sense.

Maximiliano Fabres: And I think another constraint was our um um my manager at the time, she was also a student. She was I think doing h is it was it masters? She was doing her she was in her final year

Kenneth De Leon: okay

Maximiliano Fabres: for doing a masters as well

Kenneth De Leon: and so she was just a temporary um I don't I don't want to say she was a temporary staff because it wasn't

Maximiliano Fabres: so she was fulltime on a position that was time constraint.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. Yeah. So basically her time she wasn't reachable all the time.

Maximiliano Fabres: I see. Yeah. I see.

Kenneth De Leon: Okay. Um I got I got a side. So this is a question that that's a little bit away from that in the role itself.

Maximiliano Fabres: But uh we've talked about basically oh my god environmentability. I don't know why do I say this stuff. Look. Okay. English is my third language. I got to say that. Okay. So, when I mean environmentability, you

Kenneth De Leon: think sustainability. Okay.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. Okay. That's fine. All right.

Kenneth De Leon: Um, so what what trends have you seen in uh in this uh area? Um, so

Maximiliano Fabres: in the uni and like while you were there and now that you're outside of it,

Kenneth De Leon: I think it was nice to follow on what was happening um with the role um after uni like seeing

Maximiliano Fabres: seeing other students um become other champions.

Kenneth De Leon: Um

Maximiliano Fabres: then the role was discontinued in 2025.

Kenneth De Leon: Okay.

Maximiliano Fabres: Which I was a bit sad about. Um but I think there's a now there's a new initiative with the um education for sustainability development or I don't know it's called ESD ESD department at the university again this was three years ago

Kenneth De Leon: PTSD

Maximiliano Fabres: um but I know that there's a new initiative and I know that they've got um students maybe it's a paid role I don't know, but like it's

Kenneth De Leon: you're outside of it now, but

Maximiliano Fabres: I'm outside of it now, but it's nice to see that it's still existing just in a different form.

Kenneth De Leon: Um, but when I was doing my research um like on on this like how higher education institutions um how they're tackling how to be sustainable. Um there's a there there is a a a growing trend um because the students who come who go to university um well I mean

Maximiliano Fabres: are more into it

Kenneth De Leon: are are more into it. I mean they're they're politically aware. They understand that the world is changing at a very very fast pace. Um like I think it's quite common to see in Gen Z um climate anxiety.

Maximiliano Fabres: Um I mean especially with the heat wave that we've just had.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: Um you know and hearing and that's time guys. You're never going to know what I've just said.

Kenneth De Leon: No, no, no, no, no. Go on. Go on.

Maximiliano Fabres: Um I've actually lost my train of thought.

Kenneth De Leon: Uh sustainability and

Maximiliano Fabres: climate anxiety. trans climate anxiety heat waves and you were talking now.

Kenneth De Leon: Yes. Um so obviously with this heat wave it's not that's not normal for the UK.

Maximiliano Fabres: Um and then you've seen news about um headlines of what's happening in India with this heat wave. M

Kenneth De Leon: like a headline saying about 3,000 people dying each day because of the heat wave that's happening there.

Maximiliano Fabres: Mhm.

Kenneth De Leon: Or the heat or the heat wave that happened just throughout all of Europe. Like you're seeing um temperatures of 40° in France. It's it's insane. It's crazy. Um, and so when you when you see a massive problem like this, it's really hard to um it's really hard to not feel powerless because you are one person in a world that's been well that has grown because of the mistakes of the previous generations. Um so then how can you fix this systemic disparity? So yeah, I think it's I think you see different kinds of people who go to university to one understand the this the problem in order to make a solution

Maximiliano Fabres: or maybe you'll I mean again in my experience I've seen people who will feel really really depressed and anxious about the future that maybe they don't want to like they've developed some sort of apathy which I think is quite sad when really we should try and like I And it's hard to say it's hard to remain hope hopeful of a future when there's all of this happening. Um but I think that that's the point, right? Um we we we need to try and find impact things that are impactful no matter how small. Um, which is why I feel very in a privileged position to have been in a role where I can make my own to create passionled projects that I can say that I did this because it's stemmed from me.

Kenneth De Leon: Um, and to walk me through your decision architecture, I'll say what it is.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah, of course. Um, basically how do you weigh variables

Kenneth De Leon: like personal values and so on

Maximiliano Fabres: to make decisions or time constraints etc.

Kenneth De Leon: Sure.

Maximiliano Fabres: to make these decisions.

Kenneth De Leon: I love questions like these because it actually re gets you to um just actually reflect on everything that you've done.

Maximiliano Fabres: I know.

Kenneth De Leon: And that's what I asked you that question. And it's it's great because whatever I answer now, it'll probably be different in a week's time.

Maximiliano Fabres: I love it. Yeah.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. If you see if you saw the previous episode, this is a snapshot. So, just as a caveat,

Maximiliano Fabres: the first episode though,

Kenneth De Leon: I think so in my day-to-day life, I'm I like to have some structure to my day. Um, I think that's a very normal thing to have. Um, I don't really eat breakfast. I eat it at like 10:00 in the morning. Um,

Maximiliano Fabres: but when it comes to big decisions or decision, decisions that will have an impact on whether that's my personal life, my work life, or in general. Um, I like to I like to think they're all value based.

Kenneth De Leon: Um, I think first question I think of is are my values being threatened? Um, again, this these these are all things I will think about. Um, or I'll ask myself in some certain situations, but I do ask myself that question because there have been times when I've made a decision and I didn't notice at the time, but my values were already compromised and then the outcome of that decision was I felt really bad. My mental health wasn't really great. I regretted a lot of things. I regretted that decision and because I'm someone who likes to excuse me I'm someone who likes to put the put the effort in into something that they've signed up for. It's hard to get out of it. Um, so I think using that example has now helped me to change that question to um are my values being threatened because if they are there's a chance that they will be compromised and I don't want that to happen. Obviously it's um values will change as you get older and you have different experiences. Um but then when it comes to again there's another question that I'll ask myself when it comes to decision- making of um will this help me in the long run? I like to I like to think about um as a planner and organizer I like to think about the next step. Um I take it from my dad actually. We played chess when I was younger and he was constantly you need to think five steps ahead instead of two.

Maximiliano Fabres: Oh my days. Okay. I see.

Kenneth De Leon: So I think it's

Maximiliano Fabres: now I understand like where the your planning comes from. Yeah.

Kenneth De Leon: Chess at 3 years old with your dad.

Maximiliano Fabres: But it it and I think it's worked out for me favorably because um

Kenneth De Leon: like I'm I'm happy in the position that I'm in. Um, and I like I'm comfortable and and that and that's nice.

Maximiliano Fabres: Um, because of those decisions. Like I think some decisions were made without me thinking about it too much, but um, that has led to where I am now. So, I don't really regret it. some of them. But it's it's it really it really an old question I actually like to if I'm going to drop it in here is what do what do I think and how do I feel?

Kenneth De Leon: Okay.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah.

Kenneth De Leon: Oh, that's that's the one that I have for for partners. It has to make sense

Maximiliano Fabres: logically. Yeah. I'm not going to marry somebody who's just like been through three divorces.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: But I'm also not going to only marry for love,

Kenneth De Leon: you know.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. At least for me.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. No, that's fair. I do understand that.

Maximiliano Fabres: And I think it's like especially when it comes to work like um it's like yes, well is it is it close to home? like these are the logical things that we'll have to think about

Kenneth De Leon: um that will help influence our um help influence how we make our decision but then how do we feel I think when we've worked together and I I use this quite a lot now what does my gut say

Maximiliano Fabres: yeah literally

Kenneth De Leon: what does my gut say I think that's um

Maximiliano Fabres: I think it's it's something that I've I have been using more since we've worked together

Kenneth De Leon: um but I think when it was not thrown in our faces but when it was made when we were made aware of it I hadn't realized how much I had been thinking with my gut.

Maximiliano Fabres: Um yeah that's that's the best thing of sales training. It just teaches you how how many thoughts just go there and they're one negative and two

Kenneth De Leon: your decisions are only made out of like your emotional state which is Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. So I try I try not to be too emotional when it comes to making decisions. Obviously that is an important factor to consider.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. And it's impossible really.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So yeah, that's a very long-winded answer, but I like to make sure that I'm making the right decision or the correct decision for me at the time.

Kenneth De Leon: I think I think I I I got it at least uh like this. Basically, you see if it makes logical and emotional sense

Maximiliano Fabres: and you never compromise.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. And you really regret those times where you have without knowing just because you didn't thought it through.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. Yeah. Something like that.

Kenneth De Leon: That's about right. Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: Um then around your values, how do you decide which one is like more weighted? We we are guys we are going to go into sustainability. Don't worry, but this is like the the ground level to then go into sustainability. Yeah. By the way,

Kenneth De Leon: I think it's also worth saying that my final year project um centers around so my my my dissertation was how do my personal values affect my decision- making

Maximiliano Fabres: in sustainability roles. So that's why the first um episode was about sustainability.

Kenneth De Leon: Um

Maximiliano Fabres: and so what I really wanted to find out was how I make my decisions in this role. Um so I think value I think everyone on some level makes a decision based on their values.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah I I me too and I actually wanted to ask you this is a further question but

Maximiliano Fabres: sustainability the person who decides okay I'm going to be a sustainability champion

Kenneth De Leon: and the other one who says I'm going to work for a industrial m mining complex

Maximiliano Fabres: they they probably are not that Are they that different of a values or or not?

Kenneth De Leon: See, it's it's again this is this is why this is such an interesting topic because they could have the same values. They just have a different outlook on how it and they just have a different method of showing it.

Maximiliano Fabres: So maybe

Kenneth De Leon: that I find really strange but that's what I did when when I was researching your paper.

Maximiliano Fabres: Uh I was like oh my like does am I crazy or is this guy saying this does Yeah. Okay. So it is true that you can

Kenneth De Leon: it is possible you say

Maximiliano Fabres: yeah yeah it is it is possible like I think

Kenneth De Leon: again um we we can't how values are shaped that answer is very it's it's quite complex so obviously we get values from our parents

Maximiliano Fabres: but for people who didn't have parents it would be from parent-like figures or role models in their early years in the early development so it could be teachers it could be their old siblings or it could be like I don't know some football star or some celebrity.

Kenneth De Leon: What is it? Uh the group of five was called.

Maximiliano Fabres: Group of five. But it it honestly really depends like um

Kenneth De Leon: it's like the people that you were surrounded with when you were younger. But then um in the research that I I did there was a paper that said people go to people who go to school

Maximiliano Fabres: that's when the values get really tested because you're out of your comfort zone. You're out of your family bubble now.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: Better.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. Now you now you're seeing people um who obviously from different backgrounds, people with different upbringings, people you know from different class levels. It's then then you see okay who am I going you do you make friends with because they have the similar values to you or do you have friends because they have the same hobbies as you? But then that I think that question kind of interlinks with each other as well. Um, so it's it's a really interesting field. Um, by the way, I'm not an expert at this. This is research I've done three years ago.

Maximiliano Fabres: At he did like you did do a paper on it. I'm just saying. By the way, the amount of papers that were there in in yours just quote it. I think it was like I don't know it was like

Kenneth De Leon: probably around 30 or 40

Maximiliano Fabres: around eight pages of just quoting mate it took me a while to like just like go through all of them.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. Um but wait what was the original question? I think we went Yeah. Yeah. We already went off topic here but um the question was basically how do you particular weigh your variables? because you're saying yeah the kids in school basically

Maximiliano Fabres: need to test this out you know once they enter school.

Kenneth De Leon: Okay. Yeah. So

Maximiliano Fabres: how do you wait them?

Kenneth De Leon: I think for me um I learned that time is important. I want I will try and make a decision that will save me time or that will give me time to do other things I love that I like to do.

Maximiliano Fabres: Really?

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. So I think there's a model that I I use. It's called Schwarz's value theory or SVT. It's a really interesting model. You should look it up because I use the original model. It's now been updated. Um but essentially it's like a security was one of was one of the ones that I

Maximiliano Fabres: four there's four regions or not?

Kenneth De Leon: Four regions. Um it's it's really hard to explain without actually showing the diagram and table but four regions the total number of values is I think about eight that's kind of um classed into

Maximiliano Fabres: I got it I got it here I can read it out so basically self-enhancement conservation

Kenneth De Leon: conservation actually um if you let me just get the paper.

Maximiliano Fabres: What are you talking?

Kenneth De Leon: I think there's um I've

Maximiliano Fabres: Which one of them two are you talking about?

Kenneth De Leon: Uh it's not those two.

Maximiliano Fabres: Oh my days. No,

Kenneth De Leon: my research was wrong. Oh my days for the for the last episode. You know what happened? No, you can keep

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah, go for researching.

Kenneth De Leon: For the last episode, guys, what happened was literally I did around six hours of research.

Maximiliano Fabres: Mhm.

Kenneth De Leon: And this was Ignasio, by the way. So Dr. Ignasio Desa.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah.

Kenneth De Leon: PhD in physics. Has been doing AI research for about 20 years.

Maximiliano Fabres: In the conversation before, I was having a smoke. This guy was like talking to me and he just says, "Oh, oh, I see what type of research you have done." Yeah. By the way, everything is wrong. It was the wrong research to do. He's very straightforward. He's Argentina, so I love him.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. very straightforward with me. Awful. It hit hard. Like six hours of my life, like five or six hours just like wasted in something of Yeah, I did a commercial study by the way, like I sort of study. And he was like, "Yeah, no,

Maximiliano Fabres: fair enough." But no, I in like I had to scroll down because I def I recoded it in my in my work. So the values kind of came under 1 2 3 4 six different values. I think it's like the it's somewhere down in in the research list.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. No worries.

Maximiliano Fabres: Um so it's achievement, benevolence, conformity, security, self-direction, and universalism.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah, I remember it now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: And and like now that I've got this in front of me, I think the my top were

Kenneth De Leon: Oh, I actually got 10.

Maximiliano Fabres: You got 10? Yeah, I got 10. But yeah, yeah, yeah, don't worry. Don't worry. Yeah, it's basically

Kenneth De Leon: loads of models. It doesn't matter too much. Um, but I think

Maximiliano Fabres: for for me it was um self-direction and security um that are values that I that I that I found in this study that that's how I make my decisions. What that means is um security values mean it's the preservation of self, moderation of actions for more mental/physical capacity and self-direction means independence or the freedom to pursue passions, thoughts, exploring behaviors. And I think because I'm so I'm quite a curious person I like to I even now in the job that I do like I I ask for time from for time from my manager to actually go read or do some extra learning that's just beyond my role.

Kenneth De Leon: Um yeah because

Maximiliano Fabres: I want to do that. Um, so I think how I make my my decisions are or how my values drive my decisions. It's who I am. It's to put it to put it bl plainly or bluntly. Um, I I make decisions because I'm interested in finding out something about this topic, but I also make but it's also to help stop myself from doing too much, which is what I've in if you know me, I

Kenneth De Leon: that sounds contra contra contrarian as hell. How does those two things reconcile? like I do more than is required.

Maximiliano Fabres: Mhm.

Kenneth De Leon: Because I don't want to do more than is require like that's what I'm hearing.

Maximiliano Fabres: I know my capacity. I know I know when I'm about to burn out or I know when I become fatigued.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: And so I will have limitations

Kenneth De Leon: in place

Maximiliano Fabres: to stop myself from burning out and feeling fatigued.

Kenneth De Leon: So I can still explore and be curious and learn.

Maximiliano Fabres: I see. But I will there'll be a stopping point to that.

Kenneth De Leon: Okay. So you basically limit the amount of time that you I'm I'm thinking about something something that I u that we saw in economics which is like you have a certain amount of money.

Maximiliano Fabres: Mhm.

Kenneth De Leon: And basically you're saying I got a certain amount of time that I will put into the work.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. Whether it's in the work itself or outside of the world, the work but also like surrounding it.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: And then that's it.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. Pretty much.

Maximiliano Fabres: And then I'll have the rest of time for myself because I don't want to burn out. And this is what I've learned. This is the amount of time that I

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah.

Kenneth De Leon: Yes.

Maximiliano Fabres: Okay. Okay.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. It like I said it's it's such a complex thing and it's like it's hard to describe it into words and like see how because value some values within ourselves will start to contradict each other like like like those two.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. So again, there will be models and theories that will say or that probably won't say that there will be some values that will be grouped together which will enhance certain experiences like I think maybe that's how people get epiphies maybe but then there will be

Kenneth De Leon: have you ever been in a position where you are sweating so much or you are trembling and shaking because you don't know which decision to pick that probably is because what your some of your values are clashing and contending at that point. You know what? Those are the type of decisions I think of when I when it has to do with people

Maximiliano Fabres: because one thing I hate is hurting people

Kenneth De Leon: because I I have done it and I've seen the consequences and it's not great.

Maximiliano Fabres: Mhm. And yeah, but but I do understand that that particular thing when I have a choice on what to do

Kenneth De Leon: for example girlfriends that has happened a lot where I just like I I had to take the decision

Maximiliano Fabres: but it wasn't the one that I wanted. So, it's it's it's weird, but

Kenneth De Leon: yeah,

Maximiliano Fabres: like I think it like for example u like m may maybe I think a common example is I've I've got a I've got a I've got a holiday planned with my partner. I really want to spend time with them. Oh no, I've got a holiday with my family.

Kenneth De Leon: How am I supposed to Yeah. Like how am I supposed to

Maximiliano Fabres: go to both?

Kenneth De Leon: Go to both like with separate places. um you you as a person just forgot that both were happening. So then how do you how do you pick, right? Which which which one

Maximiliano Fabres: as a clash of values

Kenneth De Leon: that could be a clash of values. You've got familial you've got familial families what values are what.

Maximiliano Fabres: Um,

Kenneth De Leon: so maybe for that, but that that could mean anything to someone. Yeah. Right.

Maximiliano Fabres: Definitely.

Kenneth De Leon: I think another one is, u know, you've got someone's birthday dinner.

Maximiliano Fabres: Um, you know, someone you're very you've known for 10 years. u you helped organize the party, you said you'd be there, you do all of this,

Kenneth De Leon: but then work says, u but then there's an opportunity for overtime at work, u to earn more money,

Maximiliano Fabres: um on a project that you've been working on. I've that's my family I think understands that.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah,

Maximiliano Fabres: they understand that from me and I and I really appreciate that they understand that.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah,

Maximiliano Fabres: they just know my work will come in front of them

Kenneth De Leon: no matter what.

Maximiliano Fabres: I really love them and appreciate them, but I'm working for

Kenneth De Leon: the future of my kids,

Maximiliano Fabres: which I don't have by the way. So, if anybody is trying to apply, please u click the link below and you know No, no, I'm kidding, guys. Um, no, no, but I I do understand that.

Kenneth De Leon: Mhm.

Maximiliano Fabres: Um, so, so now I really want to go to like your quick decision making because there's some big things that you of course are thinking about. you're like trembling on the decision

Kenneth De Leon: or at the door of it. But there's some others like what do you eat for breakfast then? I don't know. Or maybe you do think about that a lot. I know people that do think a lot about what they're eating for breakfast.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. Are you one of them?

Maximiliano Fabres: Not not really. I think my relationship with food is u if it sustains me, it sustains me. If it's if it if I feel good after eating it, then I feel good after eating it, you know. Um, but again like you could you could attribute to building a a structure for your your daily routine to be something that you value like you value consistency.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: Or you value self-preservation.

Kenneth De Leon: Consistency. Sorry.

Maximiliano Fabres: Like you value inside joke from when we worked together.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: No self-preservation. We were we I think we we really connected because we had no self-preservation.

Kenneth De Leon: We were incredibly consistent in just just that, you know.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah.

Kenneth De Leon: What else? We're just great people. That's the thing.

Maximiliano Fabres: But yeah, like u I think with the everyday tasks, I think because it's a repetition of stuff I've done,

Kenneth De Leon: it it doesn't like it works like clock it works like clockwork. Um, like I'll do my groceries on a Sunday or a Monday or a Saturday. Um, I'll batch cook. Like to to me that's like I'm preparing myself for the week. So then I can just one save money u from

Maximiliano Fabres: buying stuff at work or buying food for lunch that's not that's not homemade.

Kenneth De Leon: Um, and two, it just saves me time to it and actually helps me take time to I don't know. Um, cooking for me is u is like rediscovering. It's it's a creative process.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah.

Kenneth De Leon: Um, like, hey, I can throw in this spice or this thing. And it's it's a nice thing. It's a nice bit of mindfulness that I can do which will help set up the week for me.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah, that sounds good.

Kenneth De Leon: So, again, like

Maximiliano Fabres: I don't like to cook at all. I got to say I hate it with my life. I think it's the the worst waste of time possible for me. I really enjoy eating by the way. I really really enjoy.

Kenneth De Leon: Mhm.

Maximiliano Fabres: No, not that much. I don't know why I like that. But well anyways um I really want to tie this u this like quick u decision making

Kenneth De Leon: towards a quote that you said u on your research which was if I'm not being sustainable myself I'm not practicing sustainable methods.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah.

Kenneth De Leon: I remember seeing you at work.

Maximiliano Fabres: That quote didn't exist in that job. So what have you learned now that helps you with that those those or gives you a rule of thumb saying like you know what I'm going for more sustainable method within my life.

Kenneth De Leon: Um great question. So with so I understand my capacity for work. I think u the job that we did previously it was again different ballpark. It was 100% commission based. It wasn't a salaried role. Um, so that to me is, okay, I need to work hard. I just need I need to get all of the targets. Um, no matter what. So that to me is I need to like it was it was a different time in my life where I didn't have the funds to be living as well. So I needed to So I think again that value of self-preservation comes first where I need to make sure that I'm paying rent. I'm eating. I'm, you know, I'm doing some the things that make that are u basic to human living, right?

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. Just the bare minimum, you know.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. Like u Maso talks about it. The first one is self-preservation and stuff.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. Exactly. Um so I guess in a u in a way that was the only sustainable method there

Kenneth De Leon: because the first job I got after loads of other rejections.

Maximiliano Fabres: Mhm.

Kenneth De Leon: Um and then even u even though I was applying for other jobs whilst work whilst we were working together u it was still quite hard to actually u get another one. Um so

Maximiliano Fabres: well I I didn't get another one while while we were working at least.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: I never got another one and then well I used my own tactics to get another one.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. Exactly.

Maximiliano Fabres: Knocking in the door until somebody answers. Well, this is the thing. So, maybe the person I was u a year ago or a year and a half ago was in survival mode.

Kenneth De Leon: Oh, I see.

Maximiliano Fabres: So, I've graduated university. I've got all of these skills I'm looking for. The next part of my chapter is I need to be paying rent and saving but also living at the same time because none of that was happening and I didn't want to move back home with my parents. Um love my parents by the way. Um I this was ride or die.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: So maybe at that point in time that that was the only sustain u um sustainable method I had.

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah, it makes sense. Okay. Okay. And then u you then said after cuz now now you have this this limit on how much how much you work or you put into your work. Now you have like this ceiling so to say so to say self put as well. How do you go about that pressure of productivity that you also talk about in your research

Maximiliano Fabres: because you do have that I do know that.

Kenneth De Leon: Yes. So I think u so u again just to preface u my research was an autoeththnolographic approach.

Maximiliano Fabres: Sorry guys I by the way I say this because you guys haven't seen his schedule like that's the thing between social events gatherings like work all that stuff. Yeah. No way you're getting.

Kenneth De Leon: He moved me like for a month, mate. It was like what the hell? Like I'm the guy with a buck. u Yeah. So u yeah, just so just to preface my research was looking at how I the research method I used was I was the researcher and I was the participant. And so a lot of the data I had

Maximiliano Fabres: was myself as a participant where I would record myself how I was how I was feeling.

Kenneth De Leon: Um I would be journaling and I think that's something I'm proud to say I I still do.

Maximiliano Fabres: That's a lovely lovely line. I got to say, please if you u could tell us a little bit about how now that you're working in a corporate structure, how could you apply the models that we discussed previously?

Kenneth De Leon: Um I'd say it's quite easy to apply the models u no matter where you are. Um, I think especially going back to that reflection, u it's quite easy to write down anything that you think would be like reflective. I think what really matters is how or when you do it. So sometimes if you think you've done a really good job somewhere or you didn't really perform well in this sort of project, u sometimes I like to capture how I'm feeling then in that moment. So then I write I write I type stuff down in a notebook or like on a virtual u notes notes app. Um sometimes if I have my diary with me, I'll be able to like write stuff down as well. And I think it's really important because you get to see the snapshot of how you were feeling previously and then when you look back at it u later down the line then you get to think okay what was I really thinking about like how was I really how was I thinking what were my thought processes previously. I think it's really easy to start u reflecting on your actions. Um but again whichever or however works u whichever methods work for you for you. Yeah. So you basically u go about it u doing either if you have your notebook write it down u with your values and if not I I couldn't get the that that last one.

Maximiliano Fabres: Um, so if my notebook, if I don't have my notebook with me, I will do like a virtual u I'll just put it on a notepad somewhere. Um, whether that's I send a message to myself on Teams or I send an email to myself or I literally just write a sentence in a word document. Anything that records it basically.

Kenneth De Leon: Oh, okay. I see. Um and about the and how would you say people like founders could do the same? So how could they apply the same stuff when you when you begin your reflective journeys?

Maximiliano Fabres: Um you need to stick with a plan and stick with a routine. Um, so I think for me I only record stuff I only record things u when I feel u when I feel something quite strong or if I feel an emotion as very strongly. Um or sometimes I'll just highlight my achievements u or times when I don't feel like I'm performing. Um, I think it's really it's important to pick what you value and what you're recording. Um, when you're thinking about what I what I should be doing, I think it's always good to start off small and focus on the wins. I think it's interesting to see people who reflect how much of the negatives that they focus on versus how much on the positives that they focus on. Um, so again, like if you can come up with a structure to say, "Okay, I'm going to record every time I'm going to record myself during the day as much as I can or as little as I can if I'm feeling u if or if I'm experiencing something that's not my neutral state. Um, and then maybe you look back on your reflections later in the day, like at the end of the day, or you can do it at the end of the week. It's literally and you can do it however you want to. But I'd say start picking out moments where you think, "Huh, I could probably improve that because that's your inner voice thinking or that's your that's your critical thinking kicking in of

Kenneth De Leon: how am I going to improve in this

Maximiliano Fabres: or how am I going to u avoid doing this situation?"

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah. And u how do you do it with the 360 review? So u cuz we did talk about it and u looking at your study u the self-preservation focus in particular was u higher in in your end than your colleagues. So your colleagues rated you lower on self-preservation

Maximiliano Fabres: and they did put the note of you occasionally u overexert you over exert yourself u and u towards your well-being in particular. So u where do you say your cognitive system or this 360 review u actually starts either lying to you or starts like not working.

Kenneth De Leon: I think it's important to it's okay for one it's good to have feedback whether that's constructive u or any kind of feedback is good feedback

Maximiliano Fabres: u but you also have to remember that how someone views you they're also putting their own world view on how they see you. Um, and depending on how often you've worked with that person or how u frequently you've u been with that person, they some sometimes the person you hang out with or the team that you're surrounded by brings out a certain side to you. Um I don't think that there is one situation that will show that will be able where you'll be able to express every single part in every single aspect. Um so I think that's one thing to know but any feedback is good feedback and then it's always good to see how you compare or how you view yourself versus how you compare with other people. Um again worth caveating there will be people who will thrive off u that validation and I think it's always good to have some sort of healthy u doses of external validation to say yep you're doing good job you're doing keep going it's encouraging I think as humans we we thrive on constructive and positive feedback loops

Kenneth De Leon: But again it just whatever works for you. I think for me I the feedback I received in the study was great because how I saw myself and how others viewed me in the role. There was some overlaps, but then there were some u gaps. And I think those gaps are really interesting to to actually think about and work on u or even just to actually acknowledge because

Maximiliano Fabres: u yeah,

Kenneth De Leon: like I said at the beginning, u no one can ever bring out the full. You'll always show a certain face to u different kinds of people.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. piano definitely. So u now what do you see this u the the future u like now with u this whole algorithmic approach that most companies are going for now that AI exists and the data is there so to say for you to take in and so on and reflect on yourself in comparison to others in particular in u in comparison to others in your niche or whatever, how would you go about it?

Kenneth De Leon: I think when it comes to research and AI, I like to take a stance of u AI should not take away from the things that drivers from u from the drivers that make us human. So I I u I think that AI shouldn't be used to collect data for example like if I was to for example in this particular case where I'm when I'm trying to reflect etc. I don't think I should have an AI interviewer or interview me because that it doesn't I'm speaking to a robot like speaking to a person brings out something else. I think AI should be used to synthesize information. So if I'm like speaking into a recording and I have some AI tool that's kind of okay, these are these are your key hint. These are your key u highlights that you were talking about. These are some key phrases that I've picked out that you've said u a couple of times. that's really useful to the to the research because then I it will save me like I don't know what couple of hours on looking through the research. Um so I think it's really important to keep curiosity because as humans we are curious species. I think it's important to keep that and not to have AI take over the full research picture. or the full research process.

Maximiliano Fabres: So how do you go about it this in this new organizations especially u the corporate life and so on?

Kenneth De Leon: It's really hard question to answer because at what point can you say that you're being I think it's okay. So I think to avoid lying to yourself, you need to really have those clear research questions of what you want to achieve. Um like in in the paper, let me just bring it up right now. I think in the paper I had two research questions. Um so one of them was how do my personal values inform my role performance or performance in the role? And then the second one is how might my reflexive learnings inform the performance of other sustainability champions? Meaning u how how can I extrapolate my lived experiences and my research on myself to help other people succeed in their role. Um, and I think having those two clear pieces of information help, you know, helps to steer the research towards that or helps to steer what why the data I'm looking for. Um, it's it's almost like having a north star, right? Um, you know where you want to go. You may not know how to get there, but the whole point of thinking and reflecting is that you you you try one way. If it doesn't work, you reflect on it. You try do another way. And if that works, then you think, okay, I'll keep doing that again and again. And if that stops working, okay, then what have I learned u during that process to keep going? like have what have I what can I take for the next journey?

Maximiliano Fabres: Oh yeah. u That's exactly what Ignasio said. Dr. Ignasio Desa one of our last guests u he talked about AI and basically he said well exactly what you're saying the fact that you should not utilize u data to take in information but synthesize it.

Kenneth De Leon: Absolutely. And I think just for the people who don't know what STBV means, it's Schwarz's theory on behavioral values. Um I think we talked about it in the previous episode u just ever so slightly. Um but it's always good to u look at those. Again, these are just theories. Um yes, there'll be papers that have said, "Oh yeah, this theory is great." Um but again engage the critical thinking engage that reflexive and reflective thinking of okay are all of these sources saying the same thing or who are these sources who are these sources u written by? Um are they written by all men or are they written by all female? u you know is all of the re is all of the resources u about this western centric or is it eastern centric you know it's always important to consider different factors so I think this is I think this is the key thing here being reflective keeps your critical thinking obviously sometimes that works to the detriment of others and overthinking is a thing u but to help navigate that. It's trying to how do you remove the emotion by having again this is what worked for me but it's having clear questions to help u produce u data you need for your outcome.

Maximiliano Fabres: So basically what you're doing is an iterative process. That's what I'm hearing. Basically, you take the information and say, "Okay, how is this useful for the next step and for the next one and the next one?"

Kenneth De Leon: Yeah.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. I got to say I really love u that answer. I think it's u really really well explained. I just want to u move to the next one which is if somebody would study for u so to say your like internal u journaling and schwartz analysis and u so on u let's say for u for a decade what would they realize about how u structural change management actually works and how can they be implemented.

Kenneth De Leon: Oh, what could you elaborate? Could you elaborate a little bit on that? In what context?

Maximiliano Fabres: Basically, what I'm trying to get at is how to transfer the skill for somebody else, somebody outside of the industry, somebody who u maybe is a founder or is working let's say in a minor in u Chile. Why not? M

Kenneth De Leon: my question would be how u could they implement this two principles that you studied or two mental models that you studied and how would they implement it in their own field?

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah. So the 360 it's a research method. episodes like you can use it to h to get u again if you haven't seen the previous episode just to remind you it's a research method of asking for feedback from other people that you've worked in or that you've worked with. Um, and so to answer your question and you know this this entire episode has been talking about my personal values. First of all, you need to think about what your values are because everyone's actions stems from u what what they believe in and what they value. So for example, if you are running a company and you want to u I don't know u solve world hunger or try and u try and u improve that situation as an example, right? Um are you looking to tackle the systemic side of things or are you looking to make use of opportunities that just kind of bubble along the way? or that kind of u like are you looking to take the opportunities that just kind of happen, right? Um you need to I think it's important for people no matter what field they u they're in, it's to think about what kind of person they are and what kind of person they want to be. Um there's a really nice u I think the models work hand in hand u with other models. I think I'm going to let the audience do their own research for that. But start off what you believe in and then you I think you find out I think when you start refle u thinking about that and reflecting on your journey you will start to find out what your no what your north star will be and that's constantly changing and that's something that you have to accept as well like where if I had to evaluate u if I had gone into the past going to the past and you know 5 years ago I wouldn't see myself here here now cuz I was a different person. So again going back to that iterative iterative piece u you have to accept that change is always going to occur. Things will always be uncertain but that's just part of it as part of humans. We always evolve. We always u always strive to do better. So, I think applying that into your own daily lives or into your own professions, I think it's easy to get started. It's hard to keep it going.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah, I'm u I'm all for it really. u I re I'm really into consistency. u I actually u well, there's going to be a little bit embarrassing, but like u the whole u all the people that u see this podcast know that I'm extremely competitive. Basically, what u has happened over u I gotta say the last year that we've had the podcast is I basically u I basically have a list of u other podcast. I was telling you this u before the u before the interview. u But yeah, I basically have this list of podcasts that they had everything. They literally had everything that they had incredible guest guests. They had viewership from the beginning. So, they had a massive following from the beginning.

Kenneth De Leon: u They had a way u better camera quality. u Probably they knew what they were doing about editing and software unlike me. Um and u they had of course social media and so on. They were clean as hell.

Maximiliano Fabres: Well, but one by one they have all been falling out. And that's the thing that's that's where at least I take my edge. u I took my edge by being

Kenneth De Leon: u Okay. One, as you said, incrementally improving u a little bit by a little bit by a little. Every viewer that has been with us u from the beginning knows that or at least has seen the first episode and sees this one. u They just know it. And the u other thing is that we're extremely consistent. Extremely consistent. u And that is why u we end up winning. So now out of the list of about eight six or eight u other podcasts that I u that I put in that in that list I think there's like two remaining.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah.

Kenneth De Leon: And now we even have more views per video which is crazy. But yeah, just to build on that, like consistency is I think again, you know, you can't always rely on motivation and just on huge bursts of energy. You have to kind of understand what your limits are. Understand the points of when you're about to burn out and when you know that this is no longer sustainable, this way of living or this way of thinking. and then actually putting a cap on that and thinking, "Okay, I need I don't need to be burnt out again." Um, that's already 1% of an improvement than yesterday. So, small changes, smaller bits, like baby steps. It's all that's that's what it takes. It just happens cumulatively and it pays off in the end. I'm not saying I've reached the end, but you know, in the long run, it will.

Maximiliano Fabres: Yeah, I'm u I'm definitely u with you on that. Okay, now to compress u a little bit the episode and to u close the episode down, u I really want to ask this last three questions. Um so, u let's start let's start from the u core principles. If you would have to u minimize your u this u the whole conversation in this u three core principles, what do you reckon u those would be?

Kenneth De Leon: My core principles are u to understand my limitations u to have courage in trying new things but also u but also remembering my journey and where I came from.

Maximiliano Fabres: I really love that. And now for the next question.

Kenneth De Leon: Simple. What are your mental shortcuts or rules of thumb?

Maximiliano Fabres: Rule of thumb is comfort is nice, but being in uncomfortable situations makes you think and critical thinking is important, especially in a society where AI is becoming very very prevalent. Um, and I think we need to remind ourselves what makes us human. Um, so follow those gut feelings, follow the curiosity, follow u your passions of being creative and, you know, being hopeful. I'd say those are my two really important u rules of thumb. And now for the last one, what would be u your guiding question aka what is like the singular question that you keep returning to before every like highex decision?

Kenneth De Leon: So maintaining curiosity. u I've forgotten what I've said. u The joys of being human, right? u u maintaining curiosity.

Maximiliano Fabres: Oh, just just enjoying life. Yeah, just enjoying life and be curious, trust your gut. Um and yeah, like a shortcut is if it doesn't feel right, then probably isn't right. Oh, and u embracing comfortable situations.

Kenneth De Leon: Guys, thank you very much for listening u to this week's episode. Um, we have had a lot of technical issues as you can probably see. Um, we have actually had to record this u stuff in I think three three or four locations. It's been crazy. Um, so u yeah, well it's it's been crazy. So u my apologies in behalf of myself and of course u the Beyond the Horizon team. Um, but we are working hard u to del we we have been working hard to deliver this u episode this week. I would like to thank u Ken u for being here. Please if you like this episode and you like what we're doing here. Um please u follow us u in all our social medias, Tik Tok, u Instagram, u Spotify, YouTube, u now LinkedIn, Twitter and Patreon. it really gives us u that massive help. Um if you want to learn more about Ken, you can u text him via LinkedIn and if you want to learn more about u his u work and get this u paper that he wrote, you can u ask him directly for it. Beyond the Horizon podcast is about how experts think and what leaders, founders, and CEOs can learn from the way they see the world. If you enjoy this conversation and want to support the show, you can do so u through our Patreon account where in our lowest tier you can get u well you get our weekly email with basically the distillations of every week's u podcast. Um basically u in there you will learn about the frameworks, the mental models, horistics u and so on. Um very very u narrowed down. So, it's basically a minute and a half read. Um, u the link is in the description. That's also where we share deeper breakdowns of each episode. Um, we also share them on Twitter and LinkedIn and where you can join also our monthly u team meetings u to help us improve our podcast. Yes. Um we are recording our monthly u meetings now. So if you want to see that, please go to a Patreon account. Thank you very much for listening and we'll see you next time. Bye.